A topic by Ryan

[Retribution Reptiles]

To raise temps or not to raise temps? That is the question. I personally find it very unethical but just thought i would get everyones opinion stir the pot around alittle bit.

After "setting" the sex do you raise the temps of your bators so you get more "colorful" and "vibrant" geckos?

My personal beliefs are that the genetics should speak for themselves and not let the temp affect the coloration of your geckos. I think that is a huge misrepresentation of your animals and should be disclosed to the buyer before purchasing the gecko. IE i didn't think my geckos were bright enough so i altered their color by increasing the temp on incubation.

in short, if you have eh stock then you are going to get eh animals even if you raise the temp. quit being unethical or at least disclose this info to the buyer!!!!

 

[BlackDiamondGeckos]

I don't quite agree (I've never done it), but I see your point, I guess.

My first question then is: is incubating for certain sex unethical also? You are altering the outcome of the gecko just like incubating for color. No? Why not leave the egg with the female and let them 'speak for themselves'.

I don't think it's a huge misrepresentation. You are just allowing the gecko to reach its fullest potential. That's just my opinion though. If you have bad stock then fullest potential is going to be less than the better stock. See my problem with this is that then the males you produce are just going to be a lot more "colorful" and "vibrant" than your females just due to the nature of the higher temperature. Is that not misrepresentation? So then should you move the males from their high temps to lower to show their 'real' colors and let the genetics speak for themselves?

 

[Retribution Reptiles]

actually as nature intended Geckos that were laid closure the surface were males while females were laid deeper. you run into more problems on the defect side of things when doing a change from 82-89 degrees in a short period of time.

it's not incubating for a certain sex. it's locking that sex then increasing the temp to misrepresent the animal. if you has piss poor genetics or coloration of the parents then you breed and then increase the temp of the incubator after "locking" in the sex you're pretty much through genetics and line breeding out the window.

it's not allowing a gecko to reach it's fullest potential. you altering the color of the gecko on a non genetic background which means you're selling a sub par gecko that isn't going to produce as nice of offspring then a genetic superior animal.

Davey i don't believe that you have enough knowledge behind the genetics side of things to be really having this debate. I have asked this question to many breeders and they all find it to be unethical.

great example....PaulNJ don't take this the wrong way.....Say paul is working with his JT project. but he needs females, he knows that the genetic coloration of those animals is good enough that he doesn't have to increase the temp in the incubator to "brighten" a gecko that is already line bred for a vibrant color.

it's ok to have a different opinion but when you pretty much are looking at it from a stand point of selling a genetically inferior animal to someone under false pretense that this animal is going to produce awesome offspring isn't that false advertisement. and from a business stand point from any business that is unethical and in some states will get your business license removed with enough complaints.

in short don't pretend that you're animal is the bomb if it doesn't have the genetic back ground to hold it's own.

 

[BlackDiamondGeckos]

Ryan, If I remember correctly you posted this on here to

get everyones opinion

so please don't go on saying that people responding to this shouldn't because they don't have enough 'knowledge' of the topic. If you were looking for certain individuals' feedback, and only theirs, then I suggest you pm, or email them. That way you get a streamlined answer from the people you want to hear from. I'm sure you realized that people with varying knowledge of genetics were going to respond to this post.

I simply stated MY opinion.

If you have ugly geckos, then they won't become amazing geckos by changing the temps, they will only lighten and color up a bit. If you have nicer geckos, then they will lighten and color up a bit too. But you're not going to go from having a 'grade D' gecko to a 'grade A' one from changing the temperatures. And like I said, if you have males incubated at 90 degrees then naturally they're going to be brighter and more colorful [I understand you're talking specifically about the temp change after the sex is locked, but by nature males will be lighter due to the higher incubation temps] - is that unethical? So then from someone's geckos' offspring the males will just end up nicer than the females.

Also, think about this- in the very beginning there were only 'ugly' geckos and through selective breeding people were able to make prettier geckos. If the offspring weren't 'prettier' this could have never happened, right? So who's to say that two ugly geckos can't make a pretty one? It's happened many a time. Of course the probability of two pretty geckos making a pretty geckos is higher. I know this is a bit off topic, but then are you being unethical because the genetics of those offspring are bad and you shouldn't market them as nicer genetically improved geckos? Or should they be worth the same as the parents? Also, if this unethical then isn't it also unethical to price nicer hatchlings from the same parents higher? They all come from the same parents, so they carry the same genes right? So then should they all cost the same? Well... this isn't the case. Even though they come from the same genetics something happened that made it nicer than it's siblings and it's worth more. Right?

And I think the majority of people are smart enough to look at the parents and the lines that they came from to know the genetics of the gecko- and this can determine whether it's genetically inferior or not, not just by looking at it. Looking at it will only tell you so much.

in short don't pretend that you're animal is the bomb if it doesn't have the genetic back ground to hold it's own.

As far as this goes I think that the buyer will ultimately put a price on that gecko, and beauty is in the eye of the beholder. If a breeder has a gecko that they think is gorgeous and have them listed for $500 and it doesn't sell, then obviously $500 isn't the market value. The gecko is eventually going to sell at a price that the buyer thinks it is worth.

it's ok to have a different opinion but...

One last thing Ryan- It seems like you're just looking to have people say that yes it is unethical, and I don't think you're going to get that here. Some are going to agree and some aren't, but I'm sure you already knew that too. I'm sure the breeders that you spoke to that think this is unethical know a lot about this and have a very valid opinion. If you were trying to state that it is unethical and you don't want people to disagree then that is fine too. I just I don't see why you would post this and get angry, take offense or take it personally when people don't agree. As stated before, I simply gave my opinion. You can take it or leave it, but don't question my knowledge or attack me for not agreeing with you.

 

[KelliH]

I don't feel it's ethically wrong, as long as you are open and honest about it. In my experience with this method it really only effects the Tremper Albinos anyway. If you incubate Tremper females at 82, they are going to be dark. A better way to solve this is to incubate Tremper female eggs at 86 and just realize that a few of them will be boys. That's what I do.

 

[KelliH]

LOL on a sidenote (sort of!), imagine how upset people were when they spent thousands of dollars on beautiful, bright yellow and white Tremper Albinos, bred them and all the babies that came out of the female incubators were brown!

 

[BlackDiamondGeckos]

In my experience with this method it really only effects the Tremper Albinos anyway.

That's what I have heard and experienced myself also.

 

[thestack510]

actually as nature intended Geckos...

If we based what we do on this we would have no morphs and only the five subspecies, and we would have to live in the middle east as far as Leopard Geckos go. Who are you to decide if anyone's animals are "genetically inferior?" That sounds a bit third reich to me.

 

[Baoh]

What you can see is the interaction of genotype and environmental influence. This is called the phenotype. No matter what conditions you are exposing them to, you are influencing the phenotype to some degree. What makes a person think he or she can tell another person how much and of what kind of influence can be applied? Where is the arbitrary line, based solely on an individual's belief system, drawn, too? So, if such decisions are personal beliefs, perhaps we should leave all people to decide for themselves.

 

[ajveachster]

Here is a topic on which Ryan and I disagree a bit. I don't think it is unethical to raise temps to heighten the color of the gecko. I don't think it is a misrepresentation of the true gecko color. My reasoning is that if you breed it, and incubate the next generation with the same conditions then you would hope to achieve the same result. This does mean that there needs to be clear communication between seller and buyer if you are looking for a gecko to breed. As a buyer it is your responsibility to ask if their is anything you should know that may affect the offspring you will produce. As a seller it is your responsibility to divulge such things. I look at it the same as hets and possible hets. It is something you cannot see with the naked eye, but can determine what happens in the next generation. I think it would only be unethical if that information was withheld purposely. I do know that this is a practice we will NOT be using in our breeding projects since Ryan in against it, and I can't see it being all that practical with our incubator setup. I also don't know that it would really make enough of a difference in the coloration to go through the hassle. I guess I like the KISS method. It's like the Ronco Rotisserie. SET IT AND FORGET IT!

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

LOL on a sidenote (sort of!), imagine how upset people were when they spent thousands of dollars on beautiful, bright yellow and white Tremper Albinos, bred them and all the babies that came out of the female incubators were brown!

I am pretty much on the same page as Kelli. Altlhough I don't think it is 'technically' unethical, I do think using the dual-temp incubation method creates the chance of misrepresenting the color and/or brightness of some Tremper albino females. Also, when I tried using this incubation method many years ago I had a very high percentage of egg failures and deformities in the offspring.

 

[BlackDiamondGeckos]

LOL on a sidenote (sort of!), imagine how upset people were when they spent thousands of dollars on beautiful, bright yellow and white Tremper Albinos, bred them and all the babies that came out of the female incubators were brown!

Hmmm... Pure Chocolate (Super Dookie) geckos... Sounds interesting, I'd be happy. :main_yes:

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

Hmmm... Pure Chocolate (Super Dookie) geckos... Sounds interesting, I'd be happy. :main_yes:

I agree! Personally, I love classic 'dookies' and they are becoming more difficult to find now that the Tremper genetics are becoming more 'refined'.

 

[OhioGecko]

I incubate all of our eggs at one steady temp to decrease the chances of any eggs going bad. But I honestly do not see in problems with someone taking the risks to raise the temp to enhance the leos natural color. It will not change the genetics of the leo, and if the gecko looks that way with riased temps then the babies can to.

In their natural enviroment the loes temperatures fluctuate much more than they do in our incubators. There is not ethical debate here becuse the temps are controled by nature.

 

[BlackDiamondGeckos]

I agree! Personally, I love classic 'dookies' and they are becoming more difficult to find now that the Tremper genetics are becoming more 'refined'.

Yup that's true but... I found one at P**** the other day! My brother went in to get hamster food and, of course, I made a bee line to the reptile section. What do I see? A dookie tremper and a super nice SHTCTB. Couldn't help it. Snatched them up. Now they're my little brother's pets.

 

[ang3l3s]

Reading trempers site he said doing this process unlocks the true potential, take it as u want but what if in the wild a gecko lays on a cool spring day right b4 summer comes and the temps jack up , sounds like nature @ work but then again people are breeding these guys which is simulating nature as well so i guess it ain't to bad to jack up temps.

 

[Retribution Reptiles]

I just thought i would stir the pot a little to see whatever thought....i wasn't attempting to push any of my views on people. i wanted to put myself out there and get some feed back.

Thank you to all that have posted.

 

[DarthGekko]

I do it. I have seen differences in Trempers, SHTCT and Snows the most. I dont think its unethical to do since the males are incubated at 90 anyways. This just helps the females look as good as the males. I believe thats what Tremper set out to do when he started this process. I'll tell you that its not permanant though. If you let your temps drop in their cages or racks below 85f they will "chocolate up" or the SHTCT will brown out sometimes. My best geckos that rarely change color even during cooling are the ones I use for my main ingredients in my projects. Its another thing to consider when putting groups together if that issue is important to you and your goal.