Abyssinian & Eclipse Conversation (continued from The Gecko Blog on Facebook)

[Kristi23]

There has been a bunch of debate on the eclipse gene and also Abyssinians on facebook, so I wanted to start the conversation here. It is easier to search and reference this way.


First, this was the description off Tremper's site when Abyssinian was released as a morph. Definition of an Abyssinian = A paradox leopard gecko that has red vein lines in the eyes and that can express every color on the body except for black pigment. Adults have a speckled tail and often a very faded look. Some people might classify this morph as a type of albino as seen in hooked-billed birds.


Some of the first Abyssinians were purchased and test bred. When bred to an eclipse, it produced 100% eclipse. So it was proven to be an eclipse. That took one season of test breeding. If you search Abyssinian here, you'll find multiple threads on it.


I purchased one of the babies from one of those pairings and also came up with it being an eclipse.

Going by the description, I could have said I had Abyssinians that I purchased from other breeders (and produced) before that "morph" was released. I've had eclipse with brown or orange body spots (only a little black on tail spots) and red veins in the eyes. I've bred them together and produced eclipse with black on their bodies and no red veins. I've also taken two non red vein eclipse and produced eclipse with the red veins. I wasn't able to reproduce it effectively. Many of my eclipse over the years have had red veins and I've been linebreeding for orange instead of black. My results of linebreeding have worked pretty well imo.


So jump ahead and there is a gecko on the Abyssinian for sale page (sold) that has black all over the body. That obviously doesn't fall into the "no black on the body" description. So obviously Tremper doesn't think that is the morph description any longer.

This is that gecko (photo credit to Ron Tremper):


Lately the definition has changed (and I'm not sure who first used it) to Abyssinians referring to eclipse that show no eye pigment. However there are still people who follow Tremper's original description.


Ideas and opinions would be appreciated.

 

[Kristi23]

Another discussion from someone was saying that eclipse isn't a recessive gene.

I will say that it has always acted as recessive for me. When breeding eclipse x eclipse, I get 100% eclipse babies. The amount of eye pigment varies as does body pattern/color. But they are all eclipse. I have not heard of any other breeder who believes otherwise, but this person claims there are others that came up with the same results as him.

 

[Kristi23]

And this is a copy of a note on my facebook page that I made earlier this year.


I see so many questions posted about the eclipse gene. I'm definitely not an expert, but I know I've had to have hatched 75+ eclipse over the past 7 years. It's the gene I work with the most. Just because your gecko has some eclipse in the eye does not make it an eclipse. And if there is no extra pigment, it still may be an eclipse. This can be very confusing.
First thing you need to know is the genetics of the animal. Eclipse x Eclipse should give you 100% eclipse. When working with hets, this will be harder.
All of my eclipse have hatched with a white nose no matter how much pigment there has been present. I've never hatched one without the white nose. It does fill in at times when they are adults, but the majority of mine have kept the white nose as adults.
Sometimes there will be white markings on the legs or the legs themselves my have little color. With super snow eclipse, I see white tail tips, too.
The eclipse gene will affect the pattern of the animal, too. I see a lot of black spotting on the tail. I've only hatched a few banded eclipse. Sometimes I see orange striping that comes in on the sides. This would be from the patternless stripe gene (in raptors/eclipse). Mack eclipse can be very difficult to determine if they are mack or not because they generally do not hatch black and white. Most are a darker color, but more yellow than white.
I have an album for eclipse pictures that show a variety. Once you start hatching them, you will notice the differences from the non-eclipse babies.
One of the biggest arguments I've seen is that eclipse have to have solid black eyes. This is not true. They can have snake eyes, partial snake eyes, and sometimes no extra pigment. The genetics will tell you if an animal is a true eclipse

 

[Kristi23]

My husband is off Mon & Tues, so if I don't reply right away, I promise I will get to it. We do a lot outside of the house when he's off.

I will try to answer any questions the best I can and hopefully some others will bring some information to the thread.

 

[lillith]

I really think we need to start referring to the eclipse trait as a "complex", because there are a lot of factors to it besides just the eyes. Several of the things mentioned during the discussion today were the high-white feet, the high-white face, the white tail tip; and various patterning. There was also some discussion of the history of the morph regarding bold stripes being bred to reverse stripes and creating patternless stripes. The original Ron Tremper patternless stripe group seems to be the origin of the eclipse complex.

We were also batting about the idea of seriously getting together enough samples to pilot a Leopard Gecko Genome Project. The first step is to find out if shed skins are a sufficient sampling source. There is a partial genome extant already done by researchers working in tissue regeneration work. This might be considered off-topic of the eclipse complex and perhaps would be most suitable for another thread...what says consensus?

This thread is an attempt to clarify the various factors/alleles in the Eclipse (including Abyssinian) complex. Looking forward to input.

 

[geckolabs]

I think if the idea of the Genome screening wants to be bounced around, I can gladly start another thread.

In terms of the abyssinian shenanigans, I will refrain from commenting on that, as I have not seen any of them in person, and know many have concluded it to be an eclipse variant.

In regards to the eclipse "complex"- there are also many many variance among other morphs in regard to pattern as well, so where does the line get drawn as to what we would label as a complex? There are certainly other factors at play in eclipse, but as I stated on the FB thread, there is no data to support that the alleles affecting the other traits are exclusive to eclipse and absent from other animals.
It is possible that it is other alleles causing "eclipse markers" in other animals, but given conventional evolutionary theory, parsimony fits best, leaving the mutation only arising once. The fact that eclipse has been crossed into nearly everything certainly does not help to decipher whether or not the amplified white of the feet/nose/tail have eclipse origin, or whether they are different alleles than what causes the same traits in non-eclipse animals.

 

[acpart]

Here are my thoughts (I'm not on Facebook and don't plan to be):

Abyssinian definition: I haven't seen them and continue to be puzzled by the description. As far as the changing description goes, another example is the Raptor which was originally defined by Tremper as a patternless stripe (among other things) but is now used by him (and others) for geckos with jungle, stripe and banded patterns.

Eclipse: I hatched my first eclipse last season and have hatched many more this year. Last season I proved my possible het eclipse to be an actual het (since she produced eclipse offspring with another het eclipse). This season I've produced a number of eclipse offspring who hatch black or silver and then gradually acquire a stripe pattern, but are not super snows (some of them are Mack snow though). Another interesting feature of my season is my male Tremper albino who was born in 2004, before anyone was talking about eclipse. He is currently paired with an eclipse female and has produced a number of snake eyed and solid eyed offspring. Thad had mentioned in a post last season that there are other owners of older Tremper albinos who have had the same thing happen, though I've never heard of anyone in partiular.

Aliza

 

[VampyreByte]

Aliza- Thats pretty awesome that you have a male who is obviously het for eclipse that came around before anything was known about eclipse.

I keep trying to toss all this around in my head and make sense of it. I thought I knew eclipse. But now i'm questioning what I know about it. Like is there any other recessive traits that vary in intensities? To my knowledge, No. Albinos are either that or not, same with Blizzard and Murphies. Different factors are at play with these animals that fall back to polygenic traits.

But with eclipse they don't even necessarily all have eye pigment (hence abyssinian). It plays as a recessive trait, but with varying factors of eye pigment. I just noticed on our female mack snow w/y bell het radar that she has a sliver of pigment coming from her iris, that isn't a vein. We just got her from someone and she will be bred to a radar next season. If all babies come out radar, I'll be curious if we just had that great of luck or if she is actually eclipse.
Some might call her abyssinian if we find that she is eclipse.

I think we need to take a magnifying glass to the eyes of the abyssinians to see if there is any eclipse pigment to them, even the smallest amount. Which would make them snake eyed rather than abyssinian.

I'm looking forward to this genome project and will definitely be contributing money to the project and maybe a pure w/y, from what i've seen from test breeding so far, skin if he needs one.

We are coming a long way with Leopard gecko genetics even in just the short time i've been invloved.

Keep Up the AWESOME work!

 

[geckolabs]

I'm looking forward to this genome project and will definitely be contributing money to the project and maybe a pure w/y, from what i've seen from test breeding so far, skin if he needs one.

We are coming a long way with Leopard gecko genetics even in just the short time i've been invloved.

Keep Up the AWESOME work!

Thank you for your anticipation on the genome project! Here is a link to a thread I started to put out more information regarding it: http://geckoforums.net/f125-morphs-genetics/101668.htm

And I am going to be putting together a website for it as well. Fundraising plans are also in the early planning stages. And I am waiting to hear back from my sequencing agent for a quote for the sequencing and genome assembly to get a better estimate of the cost.

 

[Kristi23]

Great thread so far everyone! Love hearing everyone's opinions.

 

[indyana]

I had a post over on The Gecko Blog thread, but I'll reiterate here to get it on the GeckoForums record:

I feel like adding a couple cents here. I believe Eclipse acts in a recessive fashion; enough breeders have proved that. However, the variability of the entire phenotype (white nose/feet, amount of eye pigment) suggests that there are multiple genes involved in expressing it, not just a single Eclipse gene. I'm more convinced by the fact that people are having luck line breeding for certain amounts of eye pigment. Also, because two different breeders managed to create the trait by line breeding patternless stripes, it suggests the trait was fixed through line breeding originally.

For those of you who don't understand what I'm getting at, look at a true, single-gene recessive like Tremper albino. You don't get variable levels of black pigment. You get no black pigment, all the time, when the animal has two copies of that gene allele, and black pigment, all the time, when the animal has one or no copies of the allele.

You may take this or leave this, as I realize I am a short timer in the leopard gecko world. Just pointing out that there are many modes of inheritance, and it does not just go, "dominant, recessive, or crap shoot"... Looking at the various phenotypes that get lumped under "Eclipse", I would say the trait is the result of linked genes inherited in a recessive fashion.

Now, some might argue that if there is a sort of "master" gene allele that is autosomal recessive and causes the other genes to be expressed in that way we recognize as Eclipse, then that's the recessive Eclipse gene. But I lean more toward considering all the traits as part of Eclipse, in which case it would be polygenic.

 

[geckolabs]

Now, some might argue that if there is a sort of "master" gene allele that is autosomal recessive and causes the other genes to be expressed in that way we recognize as Eclipse, then that's the recessive Eclipse gene. But I lean more toward considering all the traits as part of Eclipse, in which case it would be polygenic.

The issue with labeling it as poly though lies in the fact that the same traits we have come to generalize as "eclipse markers" are expressed in other animals. Getting down to the nitty gritty of the genetics, if one were to want to readdress the classification, polygenic phenotype would fit, but in terms of the inheritance, it is still an autosomal recessive gene (**assuming the inheritance is based off of one locus**)

But we will know more about that once the genome project gets up and running

 

[indyana]

Yes, all this is really just talk without a lot of research to back it up... It's fun spinning our wheels with theories though.

 

[indyana]

If we start saying that the white nose doesn't make it Eclipse, and the eye pigment doesn't make it Eclipse, and the colors don't make it Eclipse... then what does Eclipse become?

 

[geckolabs]

If we start saying that the white nose doesn't make it Eclipse, and the eye pigment doesn't make it Eclipse, and the colors don't make it Eclipse... then what does Eclipse become?

A figment of our imagination. We're all crazy, after all.

 

[geckolabs]

If we start saying that the white nose doesn't make it Eclipse, and the eye pigment doesn't make it Eclipse, and the colors don't make it Eclipse... then what does Eclipse become?

But in all seriousness, the fact that eclipse (phenotype, not directly the heritable trait) is being able to be line bred to eliminate eclipse "markers", from what I've seen, most successfully in Abyssinian animals hints to the fact that the heritable gene(s) leading to eye pigmentation affect the other markers downstream.

In other words, Aby animals having no eye pigmentation, in theory, means that there is low expression of the alleles contributing to the pigmentation. This could be the result of mutations in the promoters or enhancers of the loci, we don't know (yet). But, if the minimal eclipse markings are most prevelant in Aby animals, it leads me to assume that the product of the heritable loci affecting eye pigmentation is what is affecting the intensity of these other markers. Perhaps we could get some data together from breeders who work mainly with eclipse, to compare %eclipsing in the eyes to the intensity of the 'markers' and see if there is a correlation there.

 

[indyana]

That could lead to a lot of interesting things. If we were able to identify genetic markers for eye pigment intensity, you could then test any animal (normal or het. Eclipse) to see what amount of eye pigmentation it might display if it /were/ Eclipse...

 

[geckolabs]

That could lead to a lot of interesting things. If we were able to identify genetic markers for eye pigment intensity, you could then test any animal (normal or het. Eclipse) to see what amount of eye pigmentation it might display if it /were/ Eclipse...

Exactly. The issue there would be that the enhancers for that gene could be far, far up- or down-stream of the gene itself. The element regulating to what extent eye pigmentation is expressed, may be contained in, or very closely associated with, another gene.

 

[Kristi23]

I know that Morgan is breeding to see if the eclipse markers can be taken away, but I've never seen an eclipse hatch without the white nose. No matter the eye pigment amount, the nose is always white. It doesn't always stay white as an adult, but most do.

Eclipse patterns and colors can vary. They always have, so that part is nothing new. The main thing that confuses people is the eye pigment. And then the description of Abyssinian.

I think eclipse is complex and hard to understand because there are multiple traits that went into the eclipse morph. Just like a raptor. You are going to get variation in color and pattern, but the markers are still there. You can line breed just about any morph to make it better. For me, I try to add more orange to my eclipse/raptors/radars. You start with two animals that are orange and you're going to produce more orange. If you start with trempers that are brown, you'll end up producing animals of similar color.

 

[KashMoneyExotics]

So what would the outcome be if pairing a abyssinian to a eclipse? would all of the offspring be eclipse since the abyssinian is technically eclipse just with no eye pigment. or would there just be some weird double het outcome?