Albino or Amelanistic?

[bmwtwin2]

hi i bought 2 fat tail gecko's last week the pet shop said they are albino's but i've been looking at pics on the internet and the amelanistic ones look the same as the albino ones, what is the difference between the albino's and the amelanistic or are they the same? what are my fat tail gecko's?

The skunk stripe is the female and the banded one is the male

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[gixxer3420]

There are no true albino fat tails just amels. So you have two nice looking amels.

 

[bmwtwin2]

how come people say there albino's though and how much should a breeding pair of these gecko's cost?

 

[gixxer3420]

Not sure why people call them albino's. A breeding pair of amels costs vary, just remember you get what you pay for.

 

[TokayKeeper]

This is a copy and paste from another forum I'm on. Disregard the wording that doesn't seem to fit to the conversation here. The discussion turned into what's the difference between albino and amelanistic.

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a little something for Natalie...

http://albinism.org/publications/what_is_albinism.html

I used the above website and a few other resources back in 2000 to do a report on albinism in reptiles for my English 218 (technical writing) course at NMSU.

One of the definitions I came across for the term albinism was, "the inability to properly produce the pigment melanin." Human examples would be people with full blown albinism, to people with hypopigmentation.

Leucism, unlike albinism, is the total reduction of all skin pigment, whether human or animal, and not just melanin.

Some additional reading:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amelanistic ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albinism (they both redirect to the same page)

Synonyms(lacking melanin): albinal, albinic, albinistic, albinoid, hypomelanistic, hypomelanoid, amelanistic, amelanoid

Albino: A person with albinism. The term was first applied by the Portuguese to people in West Africa who may have had partial or complete albinism. From the Latin albus for white. See also: Albinism.

Thusly, in this case albinism would make sense to associate it with just purely the word white as humans and many other mammals contain melanin as their primary, or solitary, skin pigment. In the case of reptiles and amphibians, as you've pointed out, they have multiple skin pigments that control various colors. As accurate as amelanistic is when describing a melanin-lacking reptile or amphibian, albino is also accurate as the term is routinely defined medically as the lack or no production of the pigment melanin. Thus albino=amelanistic=albino. Since albino is synonymous with lacking the pigment melanin, it is completely correct and accurate to utilize either term. The term amelanistic, for all intentive purposes, is somewhat of a cannibalized compound word with the root being melanin, the prefix being a- (a as a prefix means to lack, without) and the suffix -ic ( is like, pertaining to).

As for T+ and T-...it can be visually diagnosed, but as you stated it is more accurately diagnosed through testing.

albinism
Congenital anomaly due to a defect of melanin production as a result of one of several possible genetic defects. Oculocutaneous albinism type 1(OCA1) is due to a genetic defect in tyrosinase, the enzyme that metabolizes the amino acid tyrosine, which is essential for its conversion to melanin (formerly called tyrosinase-negative albinism). It is an autosomal recessive condition, which affects the skin, hair and eyes. The iris is a pale colour, the fundus and the pupil are reddish and the eye transilluminates markedly. There is poor visual acuity, photophobia, nystagmus and strabismus. Oculocutaneous type 2 (OCA2) is caused by a mutation of the OCA2 ('P') gene resulting in variable amounts of melanin synthesis. The hypopigmentation of the eyes, skin and hair varies from fair to normal (formerly called tyrosinase-positive albinism). It may be associated with the Hermansky-Pudlak syndrome in which there is albinism and easy bruising or bleeding. The other type of albinism is ocular albinism type 1 (OA1). It is inherited either as an X-linked or less commonly as an autosomal recessive trait. It affects mainly the eyes and in most instances males only and the skin colour is usually normal. Management involves full correction, possibly with tinted lenses. Surgery may be required for strabismus. See ocular fundus; inheritance; trans-illumination.

While most people with albinism have very light skin and hair, not all do. Oculocutaneous (pronounced ock-you-low-kew-TAIN-ee-us) albinism (OCA) involves the eyes, hair and skin. Ocular albinism (OA), which is much less common, involves primarily the eyes, while skin and hair may appear similar or slightly lighter than that of other family members.

Over the years, researchers have used various systems for classifying oculocutaneous albinism. In general, these systems contrasted types of albinism having almost no pigmentation with types having slight pigmentation. In less pigmented types of albinism, hair and skin are cream-colored and vision is often in the range of 20/200. In types with slight pigmentation, hair appears more yellow or red-tinged and vision may be better. Early descriptions of albinism called these main categories of albinism “complete” and “incomplete” albinism. Later researchers used a test that involved plucking a hair root and seeing if it would make pigment in a test tube. This test separated “ty-neg” (no pigment) from “ty-pos” (some pigment). Further research showed that this test was inconsistent and added little information to the clinical exam.

Recent research has used analysis of DNA, the chemical that encodes genetic information, to arrive at a more precise classification system for albinism. Four forms of OCA are now recognized – OCA1, OCA2, OCA3 and OCA4; some are further divided into subtypes.

•Oculocutaneous albinism type 1 (OCA1 or tyrosinase-related albinism) results from a genetic defect in an enzyme called tyrosinase (hence ‘ty’ above). This enzyme helps the body to change the amino acid tyrosine into pigment. (An amino acid is a “building block” of protein.) There are two subtypes of OCA1. In OCA1A, the enzyme is inactive and no melanin is produced, leading to white hair and very light skin. In OCA1B, the enzyme is minimally active and a small amount of melanin is produced, leading to hair that may darken to blond, yellow/orange or even light brown, as well as slightly more pigment in the skin.
•Oculocutaneous albinism type 2 (OCA2 or P gene albinism) results from a genetic defect in the P protein that helps the tyrosinase enzyme to function. Individuals with OCA2 make a minimal amount of melanin pigment and can have hair color ranging from very light blond to brown.
•Oculocutaneous albinism type 3 (OCA3) is rarely described and results from a genetic defect in TYRP1, a protein related to tyrosinase. Individuals with OCA3 can have substantial pigment.
•Oculocutaneous albinism type 4 (OCA4) results from a genetic defect in the SLC45A2 protein that helps the tyrosinase enzyme to function. Individuals with OCA4 make a minimal amount of melanin pigment similar to persons with OCA2.
Researchers have also identified several other genes that result in albinism with other features. One group of these includes at least eight genes leading to Hermansky-Pudlak Syndrome (HPS). In addition to albinism, HPS is associated with bleeding problems and bruising. Some forms are also associated with lung and bowel disease. HPS is a less common form of albinism but should be suspected if a person with albinism shows unusual bruising or bleeding.

Lastly, albinos aren't always white (re: albus). In many instances of albino mammals, particularly dark skinned and haired species, they can actually have a yellowish cast to their hair and skin color; would they then be Xanthic instead of albino? Albino, amelanistic, tomaeto, tomaato, eether, iither....it's all semantics

 

[gixxer3420]

Amel and albino are two completely different things.

 

[Imperial Geckos]

Amels do not have red eyes, Albinos do

 

[ajveachster]

The skunk stripe is the female and the banded one is the male

I've never heard it referred to as a skunk stripe before. I like it. Perhaps if a get a striped male I'll have to name him Pepe Le Peau

 

[TokayKeeper]

Amel and albino are two completely different things.

Sorry, I sincerely disagree.

The term amelanistic was utilized to show the lack of or inability to produce melanin in species that possess more than 1 skin pigment. In the case of many reptiles, not only do they contain metabolic chemicals, enzymes and pathways to produce melanin through melanocytes, but are also capable of producing erythrins and xanthins via chromatophores. Just below the base membrane of the dermal layer resides a layer of xanthophores (yellow pigment cells), erythrophores (reddish-purple pigment cells), and other fat-soluble pigment cells.

Medically, the term albino is concretely defined as the inability to produce melanin; it pertains to no other pigment, just solely melanin. Elementary english/word teachings taught us about prefixes and sufixes of words. In the case of the term amelanistic, the prefix "a" means without, lacking, or not. The prefix "istic" means to display or contain characteristics of. Thus, amelanistic is the opposite of melanistic and with the prefix "a" combined with the root word "melanin" and the suffix "istic" to get a word defined as "to lack the display of melanin." Again, the term pertains to no other pigment.

The above said, the 2 terms are thus one in the same. Amelanistic is technically a more accurate description of an albino reptile in that the term is isolating and describing a single characteristic (melanin) where multiple characteristics (other skin pigments) are expressed. AND technically, characteristics isn't even the proper term, the word phenotype would be significantly more accurate. Nevertheless, one is medically and verbally accurate to use either albino or amelanistic when describing any reptile with the inability to produce normal levels of melanin.

Other examples of other similar terminology would include:

• hypomelanistic (hypo = low, under, beneath, below normal)
• anerythristic (an = the same prefix as "a", but an is used when placed in front of a vowel)
• hypermelanistic (hyper = to be over, above, or more than normal)
• xanthic (pertaining to to tending toward the color yellow)

Additionally the eyes of albinos do not have to be red in coloration. This is a very common misconception. In albino humans, common eye coloration varies from light blue to gray, to violet, to sometimes red or pink. In the instances of albinos with red or pink eye coloration, all that is is the result of no melanin being present in the iris, which then reflects a red or pink color that is cast off from the blood vessels in the eye.

Types of Albinism
While most people with albinism have very light skin and hair, not all do. Oculocutaneous (pronounced ock-you-low-kew-TAIN-ee-us) albinism (OCA) involves the eyes, hair and skin. Ocular albinism (OA), which is much less common, involves primarily the eyes, while skin and hair may appear similar or slightly lighter than that of other family members.

Over the years, researchers have used various systems for classifying oculocutaneous albinism. In general, these systems contrasted types of albinism having almost no pigmentation with types having slight pigmentation. In less pigmented types of albinism, hair and skin are cream-colored and vision is often in the range of 20/200. In types with slight pigmentation, hair appears more yellow or red-tinged and vision may be better. Early descriptions of albinism called these main categories of albinism “complete” and “incomplete” albinism. Later researchers used a test that involved plucking a hair root and seeing if it would make pigment in a test tube. This test separated “ty-neg” (no pigment) from “ty-pos” (some pigment). Further research showed that this test was inconsistent and added little information to the clinical exam.

Recent research has used analysis of DNA, the chemical that encodes genetic information, to arrive at a more precise classification system for albinism. Four forms of OCA are now recognized – OCA1, OCA2, OCA3 and OCA4; some are further divided into subtypes.

•Oculocutaneous albinism type 1 (OCA1 or tyrosinase-related albinism) results from a genetic defect in an enzyme called tyrosinase (hence ‘ty’ above). This enzyme helps the body to change the amino acid tyrosine into pigment. (An amino acid is a “building block” of protein.) There are two subtypes of OCA1. In OCA1A, the enzyme is inactive and no melanin is produced, leading to white hair and very light skin. In OCA1B, the enzyme is minimally active and a small amount of melanin is produced, leading to hair that may darken to blond, yellow/orange or even light brown, as well as slightly more pigment in the skin.
•Oculocutaneous albinism type 2 (OCA2 or P gene albinism) results from a genetic defect in the P protein that helps the tyrosinase enzyme to function. Individuals with OCA2 make a minimal amount of melanin pigment and can have hair color ranging from very light blond to brown.
•Oculocutaneous albinism type 3 (OCA3) is rarely described and results from a genetic defect in TYRP1, a protein related to tyrosinase. Individuals with OCA3 can have substantial pigment.
•Oculocutaneous albinism type 4 (OCA4) results from a genetic defect in the SLC45A2 protein that helps the tyrosinase enzyme to function. Individuals with OCA4 make a minimal amount of melanin pigment similar to persons with OCA2.
Researchers have also identified several other genes that result in albinism with other features. One group of these includes at least eight genes leading to Hermansky-Pudlak Syndrome (HPS). In addition to albinism, HPS is associated with bleeding problems and bruising. Some forms are also associated with lung and bowel disease. HPS is a less common form of albinism but should be suspected if a person with albinism shows unusual bruising or bleeding.

With ocular albinism, the color of the iris of the eye may vary from blue to green or even brown, and sometimes darkens with age. However, when an eye doctor examines the eye by shining a light from the side of the eye, the light shines back through the iris since very little pigment is present. There may be areas of the iris which have very little pigment.

 

[gixxer3420]

Well that is your right to disagree, but there are no albino fat tails just amels. Good luck with your disagreeing I hope it works out for you.

 

[TokayKeeper]

Well that is your right to disagree, but there are no albino fat tails just amels. Good luck with your disagreeing I hope it works out for you.

Did you even read anything I typed? Don't remain ignorant, educate yourself. It's really simply science and proper use of terminology. I'm not trying to be a jerk here, but seriously! Think about what you just said as a reply and READ my replies and/or provided quoted sources, visit their websites even.

 

[gixxer3420]

You disagree with me and I disagree with you. I read you entire post. Good luck man your going to need it with your attitude.

 

[TokayKeeper]

You disagree with me and I disagree with you. I read you entire post. Good luck man your going to need it with your attitude.

Then please enlighten me where my attitude is flawed and my scientific knowledge is lacking?

 

[SFgeckos]

Albino= Amelanistic

 

[Carinata]

Then please enlighten me where my attitude is flawed and my scientific knowledge is lacking?

FWIW, what's your educational back ground? I don't like pulling the academia card, but I possess a Bachelor of Science in Biology, with a strong underlying interest in genetics and herpetology that spans close to a decade of professional experience within those interests (almost 3 decades at a personal level). As such, my natural curiosity is to learn where I may be lacking within the interests. So again I ask, please enlighten me? If you disagree so much, please provide proof, empirical evidence so that I may weigh both sides.

Congratulations you have BS in biology! I'm 17 and can take a college level course in biology through my high school. A BS proves nothing. In African Fat-Tail Geckos the Albino gene has not yet been discovered. Only the Amel gene. If there was a TRUE Albino gene we would see animals with red-eyes because there is black pigment in the eyes. An amel African Fat-Tail Gecko has black eyes. I have yet to see any albino with black eyes, at least in reptiles. I think you need to get a Ph.D in the field of African Fat-Tail Geckos!

 

[M_surinamensis]

This thread amuses me greatly.

 

[M_surinamensis]

Damnit Kelli... you... with the... These "Thanks" have turned this site into a Skinnerbox for me and now I feel an obligation to earn my treat pellet by pushing the lever like I have been taught. Way to completely ruin my concept of free will in two weeks by creating an artificial sense of accomplishment. ... lousy website makin' me pretend like I'm pleasant and helpful to people.


Moving along then.


The argument this thread bloomed into isn't really necessary. It's something that sort of happened accidentally to reptiles as a result of people using the same words to indicate different things, it's a language problem more than anything else.

There are a lot of different terms which get tossed around to describe reptiles. Not every type of reptile has every type of term used frequently though and some terms can indicate different things with different animals because the words are being used by people who have a divergent understanding of what they mean.

There are species and subspecies designations, taxonomic distinctions. Taxonomy is a science that is somewhat subjective though, there is debate about many proposed changes, which terms to use, what kind of taxonomic model should be followed and if any given evidence for a designation is sufficient or not. As a result of this, there can be some confusion between people who subscribe to different taxonomic breakdowns or who have conflicting opinions about the entire branch of biology.

Some animals are distinguished by their location, a place of origin for them or their line. This generally happens when there's some degree of variability in the appearance of animals from different places that tends to breed true. Island populations are a common reason that locale will be used or species that have such a large range that they are found in different environments in different areas. There's some degree of expectation of a specific appearance associated with the area.

There are technical terms for describing the animal's pigments or patterns. Amelanistic, hyperxanthic and so on and so on... these are indicative of some deviation from phenotypical normalcy but do not inherently detail the underlying reason for the condition. Albino also falls into this category, but there is some confusion about how "albino" should be defined, as it is a term which was initially used only to describe pigment deficiencies in mammals, a group of animals possessing only a single type of pigment. "No pigment" in a mammal is identical to "no melanin" however reptiles (and some other animals) have multiple types of cells which produce color. This has led to the term being poorly defined, since it has two distinct definitions which are only both fully applicable to mammals. TokayKeeper was trying to explain this. However he ran into opposition who were using definitions from the next group of terms...

Marketing terms. This is where the confusion mostly originates, since marketing terms sometimes liberally borrow from words that are otherwise associated with some other method of distinguishing the animals. People who are in the business of selling animals associate words with their product in order to make it stand out from the products of their competition. Sometimes they use descriptive terms, sometimes they just attach their own name to the animals they produce, sometimes they pick a word almost at random that they just think will sell well. There is no real standard, no formalized system of review for such words being tossed around and there are erratic distinctions made between phenotype and genotype, line, locale and the meaning of words. It's not such a big deal with a term that barely has any meaning on its own or which is defined by the person who produced it (Cinnamon, Tremper) but it can be a serious problem when the term is more generic and describes the pattern or color (High-Yellow, Giant, Spotted).

TokayKeeper defined amelanism and albinism accurately. The problem is that there are individuals who are trying to market their animals who have insinuated their own definitions into the public consciousness. Definitions that are not accurate based on the meaning of the terms, but which are widely recognized by consumers because they have been repeated so frequently. Science recognizes his definitions, which just detail the pigment production. The market re-defined the words and included additional mandates for the phenotype, packaged and marketed in order to encourage sales and to make a distinction that means nothing to biologists, but means a great deal to a herpetoculturalist who likes a certain look.

Allow me to provide some additional examples of marketing confusion, to show how such things can happen.

A stripe seems like a simple thing to define, right? An animal either has some or it doesn't, if there's a line of color then an animal is striped. Ball pythons have a genotype that is striped (a phenotype). They have genetics that make them have that appearance, it is predictable and can be reproduced. So the ball python market recognized "striped" as being that specific genotype and only that genotype, no matter what the animal's pattern happens to be. If there is a stripe running from head to tail down a ball python's back but it was not produced using the Stripe©®™ genotype, dealers and consumers consider it to be a fraudulent label. They redefined the word.

Boa constrictor imperator is a subspecies which had the common name of "Common Boa Constrictor" for decades. It was a subspecies that was found in large numbers in the pet trade, alongside Boa constrictor constrictor which was known as the "Colombian Red Tailed Boa" The BCC retained brighter colors as adults, were rarer and more expensive. Many dealers started simply using the term "red tailed boa" to describe all boa constrictors, regardless of subspecies and they muddied the public perception of what the terms meant, further confusing the issue since the common name of the more desirable animal was associated with both a subspecies and a locale simultaneously. The term which was once very specific became almost meaningless, applied broadly and causing confusion to the point where the distinction was almost totally lost.

Such is the case with fat-tails. Albinism is popularly applied based on different characteristics for different species of reptile as a result of marketing, of dealers who want to distinguish their red eyed amelanistic animals from someone else's stock. TokayKeeper just wanted to explain that, to actually define the terms so that the people he was having a discussion with would have a genuine understanding of the way the words would be used by biologists. He deserves to be thanked for taking the time to write it all down, to be given respect for bothering to explain the subject as thoroughly as he did, in easy to understand language.

A proper response to make the distinction would have been something along the lines of "Thank you for taking the time to explain that. Just a side note though, african fat tails are marketed using the words a little differently, here's how they're often applied. It's not technically correct but it keeps people's breeding projects clean." He absolutely did not deserve the level of disrespect he was shown.

Edit: I don't care if anyone actually likes this post or not, it may be helpful, it might not be, it may be something someone likes... but please, for my sake, even if you do like it don't click that little thank button. I only wrote it because Kelli made me feel like I owed her a better post than the one where I made an offhanded and snarky remark about finding the whole thing funny. If this one gets a thanks too, then I'll still feel like I owe one and I'll never be able to get away with writing anything other than these long posts that are intended to be helpful ever again. If I can't haul off and sort of call someone stupid every once in awhile I'll go nuts.

 

[TokayKeeper]

Thanks for the support M_surinamensis. I was beginning to let my self-talk wonder whether your initial post, and Kelli's thank, was directed at me or not. A personal, insecurity flaw, if you will.

However your support my be in vain as I'm done with posting for a while (again). It was these types of threads that created my hiatus, the reason why after 4.5 years of membership to GF I only have 246 posts (247 after this). In the beginning, SteveB and Steve Sykes, along with a handful of others pretty much only understood what I was saying regarding genetics. These thread-types draw me like a moth to a flame mainly because I hate seeing the ignorance perpetuated, and subsequent misinformation continued. It's kind of like the sand substrate arguments too.

As you said,

If I can't haul off and sort of call someone stupid every once in awhile I'll go nuts.

Although I don't go about calling full bs as often as I probably should, but I don't sugar coat either. I spent many a posts bashing my head against the wall for the very reasons this thread has shown and you've so eloquently typed.

So again, thank you. Also, thanks to the Ho currently known as Jon (SFGeckos) for his Ho-ish accurate contribution of so little words. I'll have to get in touch with you (when I have money again) regarding tangs and carrot-tails for purchasing.

Carinata...

BTW, there are different genetic variants that cause albinism (amelanism). If you'd read my page 1 replies, you'd seen that some forms can have colored eyes, up to and including brown (HOLY %#$^ING $%^* brown is the pigment melanin!).

 

[M_surinamensis]

Thanks for the support M_surinamensis. I was beginning to let my self-talk wonder whether your initial post, and Kelli's thank, was directed at me or not. A personal, insecurity flaw, if you will.

My amusement was a result of either having to chuckle or get depressed at seeing a situation where people were banding together to rally against correctness.

The worst part of it really is that they were repeating information that someone else had told them. They latched onto it as being accurate because it came from a source that they would consider to be an authority; a breeder or a website owner with some degree of name recognition. Their belief in that accuracy overrode their ability to objectively read what you were saying and acknowledge the validity. A real shame considering that it was definitely one of the better written message board posts I have ever seen on the subject, introducing it in a way that is both accurate and fairly easy to understand.

Carinata...

BTW, there are different genetic variants that cause albinism (amelanism). If you'd read my page 1 replies, you'd seen that some forms can have colored eyes, up to and including brown (HOLY %#$^ING $%^* brown is the pigment melanin!).

And now I am having flashbacks to the public reception of the albino B. c. occidentalis, a tyrosinase positive hurricane of confused and downright incorrect message board posts that merged with fights about the Tremper incubation method to form a perfect crap-storm of awesome* proportions.

So that's a fun memory of quotes like "What the hell does sequestered mean?" and "Tim Rainwater says..."

*in that it prompted a state of jaw dropping brain numbing awe

 

[JordanAng420]

Damnit Kelli... you... with the... These "Thanks" have turned this site into a Skinnerbox for me and now I feel an obligation to earn my treat pellet by pushing the lever like I have been taught.

LMAO! I love the comparison!

Way to completely ruin my concept of free will in two weeks by creating an artificial sense of accomplishment. ... lousy website makin' me pretend like I'm pleasant and helpful to people.

LOL...

Pleasant, eh...maybe, maybe not...but helpful...ABSOLUTELY.
That is why we appreciate you.
You kind of remind me of Dr. House...? (Might I add that I love Dr. House)