Breeder Bashing: Why I Think Their Ethics Are Unethical

Nynecho

Collector
Messages
84
Location
United States
[FONT=proxima-nova, Helvetica Neue, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]So I breed pet store geckos.
I find one that looks nice and pair it with one that has compatible genes and would make nice babies.
I don't breed sick geckos.
I don't breed starving geckos.
I just breed geckos that don't have the strongest of gene pools or the most certain backgrounds.

I find nothing wrong with doing this.
I'm not selling the offspring to people as "quality breeders."
I tell them what I know of the genes and what I don't know for sure.
Usually the people who buy from me don't breed anyway,
But I give them the option, so they can breed if they want.

I am not going to sit here and be a hypocrite, so I won't sell a gecko as "pet only" if I wouldn't keep one as that myself.
The only reasons I have ever sold geckos as "pet only" is because one had a birth defect, and the other was a slow-grower and wasn't warming up to females enough to breed, even when he was healthy and able.

I breed geckos for their phenotypes, and if they have a hidden gene that comes out when I'm breeding them, that's great!
I enjoy having and creating animals with so much genetic potential. And I don't appreciate being HARASSED for it.

I have had many breeders shame me for doing this. I've had one who even harassed me to the point of having to block him from all social media to avoid being yelled at without justification.

I was even dating a breeder who I would get in arguments with about this, but what was ridiculous was he tried to tell me what to breed when I already had plans in progress. I say I like tremper, he says bell is better, etc.

Now people argue that I am "muddying the waters..."

I only have 12 geckos at any given moment. How in blue hell am I going to affect any number of breeders? How am I going to dilute your "oh so special and divine" bloodlines when you won't buy from me? When I'm not even using your lines? I'm providing a nice alternative to people who don't want to buy from pet stores but can't afford top notch breeders.

Now I have to get to the big point of all this. [/FONT]I'm only 17.
I have very little control over anything in my life right now, and I am an inch away from being on the street.

The only thing I have 100% decision making power over is my hobby- my leopard geckos. I know at least two other breeders who are in the same boat as I am, only they have even less control in their lives. I know from experience, when people say they are doing a bad thing by creating life, they feel like giving up. I have personally felt depressed because of being harassed by people I used to look up to that told me "you will never be a pro breeder" and "there's no way people will buy from you."
[FONT=proxima-nova, Helvetica Neue, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
I think it'd be cool mixing albino strains. I haven't done it myself (mostly cause I don't much care for bell) but I can only imagine how things would go if everyone started doing it. If every albino was bell het trember, or tremper het rainwater, or even all three mixed into one, you could have an albino powerhouse. If you have a so many strains of albino mixed in one, the odds are their offspring will eventually be all albinos. Now I understand huge amazing breeders like... well I'm not sure if I can name business names so I'll just say Ben and Dave and Matt, want to be, and make it a point to be, absolutely sure of the genetics of their animals. But I don't see why me, little ol Nynecho, has to be 100% sure of my genes and hets and all that. This is my first season. The first pair I bred was a SHTCTB and a Murphey's Patternless. I just wanted to create life, I needed that first pair to be a test run, to know it's possible, to know they're able, and to get experience before I start breeding $200 geckos, so I can make my mistakes now rather than later when I have the money to spend on those and might muck it up.

I witnessed a conversation the other day between one of my friends and this breeder who has been harassing me.
My friend had only two geckos. One bold stripe bell, and one raptor. She is a teenager like me, and she wasn't planning to breed but wouldn't have minded if her geckos decided to make love and babies. And what do ya know, they did. She wasn't prepared because when her leo was pregnant, she asked a bunch of expensive breeders if she was, and while I told her when she was ovulating and when she had eggs in there, these breeders told her she wasn't gravid and that she wasn't ovulating. So she had no clue what to do when these eggs were there. Right from the start she asked me what to do, but before I could answer she grew impatient and started asking these breeders again. The first thing one of them said was "Breeding these geckos was a mistake cause you should never mix the albino strains" What if you were dating someone who wasn't the best looking and he got you pregnant, and even though you loved this guy and were happy you were having a baby, someone told you that you creating life was a mistake.

Just saying this bluntly, people who think they can control the entire population by deciding for others whether they can reproduce or not, are Hitler. That's what Hitler did. That's why I will never tell someone that they are not allowed to breed a gecko I sell them. I can recommend not breeding it if it has a birth defect, or something that would prevent the next generation from being healthy, but I will never tell someone that they cannot create life, or even that they shouldn't. Mostly because I am not who decides what's right and wrong, and these people have as much right to breed their animals as you do. And as I do.

I have every right to do what I want with my animals as you do with yours. If you have the right to breed without ridicule, so do I.

I have created this thread to be a voice for people who don't give a flying frick what the babies will look like, and just breed for fun.
Nobody deserves to be discouraged the way I have seen people do here, and everywhere else on the internet.
This should be a safe place for people to talk about their herps and not feel like they have to conform to your code of ethics.

I will always stand up for people who are being bullied, and I think breeder-bashing is a form of bullying.
I will not just stand by while good people trying to do good things are yelled at by self-riotous people who think their own opinion is the only thing that matters, and that they can make people do what they want them to do, simply because they nobody has told them they're wrong before.

I'm not saying that anyone here is wrong to want pure genetics, or to think what they want, I just hate it when people try to force their beliefs on others, and I see that more in the reptile community than anywhere else. There are facts, and there are opinions.
Mixing a bell and a tremper will not make a deformed, ugly, or sick animal. It will just make something a lot of people don't agree with. Then again though- a lot of people used to interracial relationships were wrong.

Please just stop and think before you make someone feel down in any situation. Cause I'm tired of seeing it.
Your way isn't always the only way.








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Kristi23

Ghoulish Geckos
Messages
16,181
Location
IL
I am going to close this thread until I hear from Thad. I have a feeling it will get ugly fast. I'm trying really hard to figure out how to reply the correct way as a mod and not just as a breeder.
 

Kristi23

Ghoulish Geckos
Messages
16,181
Location
IL
OK everyone, please keep things polite. I know this can be a very heated argument, but please present your feelings in a respectful way.
 

OhioGecko

Mod Squad Member
Messages
2,949
Location
Sterling Ohio
I think this a really good subject and should be understood by anyone who breeds. Different people will have different views on this but since this is in GF, where well know breeders do hang out, you will get an opinion based on it's members. If this was a dog breeding site and someone suggest it is OK to breed two mutts together and sell them to the public, well they would probably be told they are in the wrong place. Sure it might be OK, but you are telling the wrong people. You are telling people who have invested $1000's or $10,000s of dollars it is OK to cross strains of albinos. Will this hurt or cause defects in the geckos, no. Will this hurt the breeders reputation and sales, YES!!! If you choose to do this and sell to pet stores, the more power to you. But forcing your ideology on everyone else is WRONG. Please read this statement you made:

I will always stand up for people who are being bullied, and I think breeder-bashing is a form of bullying.
I will not just stand by while good people trying to do good things are yelled at by self-riotous people who think their own opinion is the only thing that matters, and that they can make people do what they want them to do, simply because they nobody has told them they're wrong before.

It could very well be said that you are the self-riotous one. You are forcing your opinion on everyone. You don't like what you hear so you get aggressive towards the MODs and breeders that offered their advice and opinions. Instead of explaining yourself you demand that posts be taken down that you don't like. This is "BULLYING". You could of very easily said that you only breed pet store geckos and you don't ever expect to sell to other breeders. And that you will just have to agree to disagree.
 

Olympus

Biologist & Ecologist
Messages
298
Location
Miami, Fl.
I still think (and this is coming from genuine concern, as someone who is only a few years older than you) that geckos should probably become a secondary priority to getting yourself on your feet more stably. You mention in posts that you don't really have money to spare, here you mention that you're almost on the street, This worries me. It seems like you have to make YOU a priority, and not breeding geckos, or arguing with online strangers about it and calling them akin to Hitler. With such an unstable situation do you really want to have a room full of geckos, an incubator full of eggs, and bins full of babies to feed in addition to taking care of yourself properly? I would put breeding animals on the back-burner until you feel better about your own life. You'll have your entire life ahead of you to take on geckos and breed whatever you want and however you want to. But perhaps now is not the best time?

Again, not being patronizing. But you come waaaaaay first before breeding geckos or rescuing more animals at the cost of you not having the resources to take care of yourself.
 
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Kristi23

Ghoulish Geckos
Messages
16,181
Location
IL
This statement here is not true: I find one that looks nice and pair it with one that has compatible genes and would make nice babies.

When buying pet store geckos, you do not know if it has compatible genes or not.
 

rothsauce

Voodoo Shop Hop
Messages
138
Location
MN
Thankful this thread was unlocked.

I'm not a breeder and don't plan on breeding, but as someone who is indifferent to owning one of the 'designer strains', I have no issue with either side wanting to carve their mark into the community.

Every type of pet trade has their two differing stances on pure breeds/strains and mixed/unknown/wild, all serving a purpose to those interested their trade. Having owned animals from all ends of the spectrum, and loving them all, I will not say one is better or more acceptable than the other.

If a community wants to have some semblance of quality control, it is their responsibility to create a system where strains/parentage are monitored and recorded, and shared amongst its members. That way any breeder looking for specifics will not have to second guess a transaction, and family/bloodlines/strains could be better monitored for future generations of breeders, animal and human alike.
 

OhioGecko

Mod Squad Member
Messages
2,949
Location
Sterling Ohio
NYnecho, I know I was poking you a little here but you kind of called out for it. There is a hobbyist breeder that does one show a month that I attend. He has know beefs telling anyone that he doesn't know the genetics of his geckos. I have seen him with as many as 30-40 geckos on his table and sell 10-20. I have had many good conversations with this person and we have commented positively on each others geckos. His geckos are always healthy and look good. He has been selling at this show for more years than I have! My point is that we have never shoved our ideology down each others throat. If someone is looking for a pet gecko and I don't have one in their price range I will send them to him. On the other hand, a lot of people at the show get interested in breeding and won't buy from him because the geckos have unknown genetics. It is what it is, he will never ask $50+ for any of his geckos. But he is not going to get mad at me if I tell a potential breeding customer that his geckos genetics are unknown and they shouldn't get one if they want to breed and sell. This is the truth, and I feel it is my responsibility to let the customer know only if they are getting into breeding.
 

Kjenkins

New Member
Messages
202
Location
Clarksville, TN
Ok this is bad I by no means am a pro at leo's but what your doing is wrong. Geckos are not like humans and biracial relationships. There are things that just should not be crossed and it may not create a deformed or sick gecko but the out come is something no one wants to breed because there is nothing to be gained from crossing them all you will get is normal with whacked out genetics. I'm not trying to bash or bring you down in anyway. There is nothing wrong with pet store geckos either but you have to be willing to prove out the genetics or test breed. All this talk of just creating. You can't just create a life just to have something to do. That statement is very juvenile. I don't bye any circumstance know what you personally are going through but I think your just lashing out out of frustration with your home life. Your young, having trouble at home, have no money, no were to go, and no clue about genetics or life yet. I would focus on your problems at home right now and not on animals you have know idea what your doing with. I'm not a big time breeder I just started as well and with what I read on here you need to just worry about you and not what the world thinks of you. You have a long road ahead if you think life is hard right now at 17.
 

pmkent1

Ephesians 4:1-6
Messages
305
Location
Columbus, OH
NYnecho, I assume due to your age that you havent been deeply involved in the reptile community for very long. And by long Im mean 5, 10, 20 years. The longer your in this, and the more you read, you'll find out that the MASS majority of any part of this community, and especially the leopard gecko community, is very much concerned with the genetics behind the animals they have and produce, not just the immediate lok of it. They/we have spend years and years developing lines, testing for purity, breeding for certain attributes that we think are interesting. Not to mention the thousands of dollars to make things that way. As much as I dont agree with the way people may have gone about expressing their dislike for what your doing, please understand that this has been a problem for a long time. And the frustration of it all boils over with a lot of people and comes out as anger and disdain.

That said. In theory I dont necessarily disagree with your logic of producing genetically random animals. But you need to understand that some, if not most, of those animals have a very high chance of ending up in the hands of newer people that will inevitably breed them, label them as to what they THINK they are, and again sell them to someone else who will no doubt do the same thing. And the unknown/unwanted genes will be continuously spread year in and year out. Hence the "muddying" of the waters. Which again, almost every true breeder out there is completely against.

Its really not a matter of whether or not you have the right to do it. Of course you do. Its a matter of not doing it out of respect for the people who have years and years, and 10's of thousands of dollars invested

Hope that makes sense.
 

pmkent1

Ephesians 4:1-6
Messages
305
Location
Columbus, OH
And to make it abundantly clear, When I say I dont disagree in theory what I mean is I can understand how you can come to that conclusion, not that I in any way agree with the practice.
 

MsTwo EntFeeders

New Member
Messages
8
Location
Juneau, AK
Hello Nynecho,

I haven't read all other other threads eluding to your personal situation so I am not even going to touch on that, as I feel that it is not germane to this topic. That is a separate issue altogether.

What I can tell you, is that many people will start off buying "pet store" geckos without a care in the world about the genetics and then excitedly delve into the prospects of breeding and many times they will do so without researching genetics or even having an understanding (heck a lot of was, and is, elusive to me and I am grateful I have some excellent breeders that were willing to help me through it when my own research didn't provide me the answers I was looking for.) Yes, some of them can get quite irate when there is discussion of crossing genetics that should not be crossed.

How this can be problematic was once laid out by someone I don't even particularly care for due to the way they conduct themselves. But the "muddying of waters" is problematic in the sense that there ARE unethical people out there. There ARE people who will sell something as known genetics and that is simply NOT the case with the gecko. The unaware buyer then pairs it with something---something by let's say a breeder who has done all of the hard work, test breeding, or purchasing select lines for thousands of dollars and then cross that with someone's gecko who was told this is a XYZ gecko. Then this person hatches out babies that have holy moly---traits that simply should not be. NOW---this calls both the breeders lines into question. Now most reputable breeders lines their reputation would not tarnished by this (but I can assure you most big breeders care so much about their lines they would be troubled), but you have a new breeder who is starting out---and they buy the expensive lines with great genetics and their ethics are called into question (along with the one that sold XYZ). XYZ breeder doesn't care, doesn't even stop what they are doing. But any breeder who cares about their lines would be rattled. This muddying is problematic.

I have talked to people like yourself in generic groups, shared how important the genetics were and more often than not got similar behavior. Some who truly want to breed Yes, they are your pets, yes you can do with them what you will. As one of the other posters shared, there are people that specifically sell pet only geckos and there is a market for them and they can peacefully cohabitate in the gecko community--it's all in the matter of attitude and presentation. But for many of the people that are in leopard gecko specific groups, most of us have devoted a lot of time and money to cultivating lines, purchasing from stellar breeders and trying to purchase the best breeding stock with known genetics. It means more than you think. Please don't denigrate what these people are trying to accomplish.

You feel attacked it seems. You feel bullied. That is part and parcel to the fact that there seems to be little in the way of research done on your part about breeding genetics. You are young, you have grand ideals but the reality of it is you need to do the work to have the respect. I have come across younger hobbyist breeders who have a lot more respect in the leopard gecko community because of the research they have done. These are small lives that you play with and genetics do matter.

I highly recommend doing some research on genetics. I have had people get upset with me when I talk to them about pairing bearded dragons for fun. I simply did the math for them, shared what supplies they would need, the costs associated with feeding 20-30 baby dragons the appropriate and adequate amount of insects per day and was "bashed" for spoiling the fun. Many of us care for reptiles just as we would care for a dog as a family pet or a cat. With great care and consideration to their needs. They are not disposable creatures that are toys to play with and see what we can make. I am not trying to discourage you. If the idea of making a new morph excites you---something no one has seen before then do it the right way with the diligence and care that a project like that deserves. Now I haven't seen the threads or places where you were "bullied" but I can assure you, if you asked for guidance on how to do things the right way. What do I read first? What other information do you recommend on genetics? I almost guarantee you'd have a much better response instead of I am doing it my way and whatever--it's just a pet store gecko. Who knows, you might be even more inspired if you looked into it more.

Good luck young one. I hope you are less angry with others, more inclined to learn and willing to learn, not just hear/read what others have to say.
 

geckoboa

GeckoBoa Reptiles
Messages
335
Location
Colorado
I think the bigger issue here is someone breeding animals that is on the brink of not being able to care for them. Honestly who cares if you breed your pet geckos together but why would you if you are not financially sound? What happens when you need vet care? Honestly breed your geckos if you like but just make sure you are responsible with them. Make sure you are able to take care of them properly and that you fully disclose that you know nothing about your animals genetics to your customers. That's the ethics side of this debate. Also you must realize you are in a different market than the majority of hobbyist breeders out there that have selectively purchased animals for there guaranteed genetics. When you breed your mixed genetics you will then be competing with the mega breeders that produce 100s of thousands of leopard gecko mutts a year and sell wholesale for less than $20/gecko. That is the pet market so if that is what you want from this hobby then go for it. Not very rewarding in my opinion but to each his own. Personally I think laying out a few bucks for some sound genetics makes more sense being that you will spend so much personal time caring and raising them.
 
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Golden Gate Geckos

Mean Old Gecko Lady
Messages
12,731
Location
SF Bay Area
As one of the few gecko breeders who has been around for 19+ years and invested literally thousands of dollars on my geckos, as well as spending thousands of hours educating others, I am finding it difficult to reply to the OP without gritting my teeth. When I was 17 years old, I thought I knew everything, too. I was more concerned with how things affected me than how what I said or did affected others. I had a narrow regard and little concept of the consequences of my choices and actions. This narcissistic and arrogant sense of entitlement is even more prevalent amongst teenagers now.

Todays 17 year olds are the next generation of breeders in the reptile business, hobby, and community. Fortunately, I have found that the vast majority of young herpers are full of passion for these wonderful creatures we all love. They are willing to ask questions, learn, and take pride in becoming valuable resources for the future of herpetoculture. These are the ones that I will invest my time and energy with, and find a renewed sense of accomplishment, contribution, and inspiration with each and every one.

It is sad and disappointing to consider the aspect and possibility that blatant indiscriminate and irresponsible breeding could have such a devastating impact on the hard work, dedication, and future of our hobby and business. The good news is, that those with this type of ethic are usually short-lived in this community.
 

MsTwo EntFeeders

New Member
Messages
8
Location
Juneau, AK
I agree that responsible breeding does mean having the resources to care for them, including medications, veterinarian visits and food and most importantly somewhere for them to live (if you lose your housing then what becomes of these creatures you have purchased and brought into this world?). My geckos and animals come first. I make my monthly orders of bugs first before I go grocery shopping. I have the means and tenacity to scrape by, these creatures depend on me--quite like a child.

Breeders like GeckoBoa and Golden Gate Geckos are models to look up to, to be learned from and to truly take their words to heart (not to mention the other breeders that have chimed in on this post). I know most of them and have a respect for them because of how they conduct themselves.

If this is something that you love, then quite simply put do the work, make sure you have the resources to do it. When I decided to breed I very quickly saved my money and started purchasing geckos from some of the top breeders (GeckoBoa and Golden Gate Geckos in particular) who not only have put in countless hours/years into their work. It is far better to have one quality pair of breeding leopard geckos than it is to have 20 pet quality geckos if you want to be a gecko breeder. My focus has been on honing in on the projects I want to work on and keeping those genetics pure.

You can either be angered by these posts or use it to help develop your character and motivate yourself to learn.
 

OhioGecko

Mod Squad Member
Messages
2,949
Location
Sterling Ohio
Hello Nynecho,

I haven't read all other other threads eluding to your personal situation so I am not even going to touch on that, as I feel that it is not germane to this topic. That is a separate issue altogether.

What I can tell you, is that many people will start off buying "pet store" geckos without a care in the world about the genetics and then excitedly delve into the prospects of breeding and many times they will do so without researching genetics or even having an understanding (heck a lot of was, and is, elusive to me and I am grateful I have some excellent breeders that were willing to help me through it when my own research didn't provide me the answers I was looking for.) Yes, some of them can get quite irate when there is discussion of crossing genetics that should not be crossed.

How this can be problematic was once laid out by someone I don't even particularly care for due to the way they conduct themselves. But the "muddying of waters" is problematic in the sense that there ARE unethical people out there. There ARE people who will sell something as known genetics and that is simply NOT the case with the gecko. The unaware buyer then pairs it with something---something by let's say a breeder who has done all of the hard work, test breeding, or purchasing select lines for thousands of dollars and then cross that with someone's gecko who was told this is a XYZ gecko. Then this person hatches out babies that have holy moly---traits that simply should not be. NOW---this calls both the breeders lines into question. Now most reputable breeders lines their reputation would not tarnished by this (but I can assure you most big breeders care so much about their lines they would be troubled), but you have a new breeder who is starting out---and they buy the expensive lines with great genetics and their ethics are called into question (along with the one that sold XYZ). XYZ breeder doesn't care, doesn't even stop what they are doing. But any breeder who cares about their lines would be rattled. This muddying is problematic.

I have talked to people like yourself in generic groups, shared how important the genetics were and more often than not got similar behavior. Some who truly want to breed Yes, they are your pets, yes you can do with them what you will. As one of the other posters shared, there are people that specifically sell pet only geckos and there is a market for them and they can peacefully cohabitate in the gecko community--it's all in the matter of attitude and presentation. But for many of the people that are in leopard gecko specific groups, most of us have devoted a lot of time and money to cultivating lines, purchasing from stellar breeders and trying to purchase the best breeding stock with known genetics. It means more than you think. Please don't denigrate what these people are trying to accomplish.

You feel attacked it seems. You feel bullied. That is part and parcel to the fact that there seems to be little in the way of research done on your part about breeding genetics. You are young, you have grand ideals but the reality of it is you need to do the work to have the respect. I have come across younger hobbyist breeders who have a lot more respect in the leopard gecko community because of the research they have done. These are small lives that you play with and genetics do matter.

I highly recommend doing some research on genetics. I have had people get upset with me when I talk to them about pairing bearded dragons for fun. I simply did the math for them, shared what supplies they would need, the costs associated with feeding 20-30 baby dragons the appropriate and adequate amount of insects per day and was "bashed" for spoiling the fun. Many of us care for reptiles just as we would care for a dog as a family pet or a cat. With great care and consideration to their needs. They are not disposable creatures that are toys to play with and see what we can make. I am not trying to discourage you. If the idea of making a new morph excites you---something no one has seen before then do it the right way with the diligence and care that a project like that deserves. Now I haven't seen the threads or places where you were "bullied" but I can assure you, if you asked for guidance on how to do things the right way. What do I read first? What other information do you recommend on genetics? I almost guarantee you'd have a much better response instead of I am doing it my way and whatever--it's just a pet store gecko. Who knows, you might be even more inspired if you looked into it more.

Good luck young one. I hope you are less angry with others, more inclined to learn and willing to learn, not just hear/read what others have to say.
Marcy, very well worded.
 
Messages
600
Location
WI
I have been asked to post here. I have written a post 4 times now for this thread. I am going to write another tomorrow night and post it in the mod area to get my peers opinions.

As people know..... I have been hit with the Het tremper/Bell thing. It ruined a lot for more then one person.

Talk soon
 

Mantislover

New Member
Messages
42
Location
Ellsworth, Maine
When you say you have been hit by Het tremper/Bell thing, what does that mean?

I am interested in breeding in the future. I bought 2 beautiful girls from Geckoboa, one breedable quality the other pet only.
I plan on going back to John and asking which kind of male is best to go with Pookadott, the breedable girl. She's way too young this year so I have of time to find the right guy for her.

I used to breed angora rabbits for thier fiber, NOT show. They are deliberate hybrids for the best of both breeds. Coat color,length, amount per year etc... they are never killed for thier fur! I sheared or plucked. Many spinners raise hybrids for the benefits of both. My fave is German/french hybrids.
Because of them I understand genetic faults that can appear or come back to show themselves and make the fur useless. Then you have a pet only angora. I had some babies that were greasy! Dont ask how that showed up, Id never heard of that one before!
 

Kristi23

Ghoulish Geckos
Messages
16,181
Location
IL
Thank you very much to the breeders who have taken the time to reply. I really appreciate it.
 

rothsauce

Voodoo Shop Hop
Messages
138
Location
MN
I'm not sure how these thoughts will be taken, but after reading more comments/doing research they have been on my mind for some time.

There are many posts in this thread, and older threads, where many breeders are obviously passionate about their lines and how much time and/or money has been invested into their geckos.

I also see many stating that while it is genetics that are the concern, it is more about what those genetics can produce so far as appearances that is the issue, not that breeding geckos of a conflicting strain will result in a deformed or weak animal (unless a member of some pairing was already at risk).

But what is being done to protect those that wish to breed these known lines/strains? I see many people saying they don't want the chance that their breeding stock could become contaminated, which says to me that the community isn't doing as much as they could to protect themselves and keep better track of their 'premium stock'.
Aside from good faith or known reputation, what else is there?
While there is plenty of information on this forum, and others, it doesn't seem like there is much in the way of a united front when it comes to presenting known reputable breeders, keeping tabs on breeder animals and their kin, and keeping track of projects. Plus there is always the issue of explaining genetics to an up-and-coming breeder, which can be confusing or easy depending on who you ask or where your research takes you. All of it seems very dependent on who you know, and what groups you might be a part of.
Yes, I know of the Wiki. A great list for different morphs, but nothing insofar as who else might be breeding these morphs or the lines that they are being produced/expanded from. That takes more individual research and scanning forums/shows/internet in general.

Personally, I would feel very awkward if I were to ever have the desire to breed geckos, whereas I would feel perfectly comfortable if I ever wanted to go out and breed my dog. It's not just a matter of knowing that she is a purebred, but also that she has her papers and I can ask any breeder for theirs in conjunction with doing a check on their reputation (if desired) and easily track ancestry.
I would also feel comfortable breeding a horse, and other mammals, as I could go through the same process.

It also seems like breeders are swapping a lot of geckos as breeding stock, and fairly regularly. Some seem to keep records of this better than others.

My concern is that while the breeders have every right to want their strains and geckos to be 'muddy' free, there doesn't seem to be any real movement to wrangle things in and actually do something that will make such a desire possible.
Telling people that they can't breed unknown gecko genetics/strains and what they are doing is wrong, where wild geckos and captive geckos don't care what a mate looks like (they're not big cats), isn't really helping anyone. All it does is get everyone riled up, and no one wins.
For a community that is growing fast, especially for those that want to breed and/or discover a new morph, something should be done sooner rather than later, to protect breeders who want to breed specific strains, and for those that breed for any other reason.

HerpRegistry - Leo Lineage - Home <--- Almost on the right track, at least a starting point. So far the only thing I have been able to find that comes close to a 'database'.

I do not mean to offend breeders of any kind, but these are the concerns that I have as an owner, and if I ever wanted to breed, would have the same (if not more) concerns. I would be just as concerned over my gecko as I would about my dog.
 
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