Bug eyed snakes and culling

[M_surinamensis]

This thread is being created to continue the discussion started in My new corn snake and rat snake!. Please keep all related discussion in here and leave the original thread for comments on the photos only.

- Tony

Bug-Eyed leucistic texas rat snake

Cull.

 

[gitrdone0420]

Cull.

Huh?

 

[Taquiq]

Cool, I had a feeling it was that. That Rat Snake is gorgeous! I don't know why you would have to cull it, though.

M_surinamensis- Explanation?

 

[L-G-C]

Cull.

Why?

 

[gitrdone0420]

Cool, I had a feeling it was that. That Rat Snake is gorgeous! I don't know why you would have to cull it, though.

M_surinamensis- Explanation?

Yea, that is a fantastic question? I think maybe he was kidding because it bit Rusty and whatnot... It was Rusty's fault, he is the one that decided to feed the snake with his bare hand and not use tongs. The snake simply just missed the prey. But I just took it as a joke.

 

[M_surinamensis]

Bug eyes in texas rats is a condition that originated with a small pool of stock animals which were heavily bred to a point where the trait became very common in captive populations and has a genetic cause. It should be culled whenever it is encountered, never encouraged, never propagated and never allowed to remain in the population.

If you end up in possession of a bug eyed texas rat, it should be immediately and humanely put down- as should any other negative trait in all species which is known or suspected to have a genetic cause. Eye issues in boa constrictors, head wobbling ball pythons, scaleless bearded dragons... and so on and so on. Euthanasia is simply the responsible course.

 

[Ratman667]

Bug eyes in texas rats is a condition that originated with a small pool of stock animals which were heavily bred to a point where the trait became very common in captive populations and has a genetic cause. It should be culled whenever it is encountered, never encouraged, never propagated and never allowed to remain in the population.

If you end up in possession of a bug eyed texas rat, it should be immediately and humanely put down- as should any other negative trait in all species which is known or suspected to have a genetic cause. Eye issues in boa constrictors, head wobbling ball pythons, scaleless bearded dragons... and so on and so on. Euthanasia is simply the responsible course.

First, I have done some research and have found, that yes, they are normally culled or given away as pets. That much I agree with you on.

However, there is NO reason to destroy a healthy, beautiful animal because of a genetic defect that has no immediate health issues. That said, this is a beautiful animal and WILL NOT be destroyed.

You are entitled to you opinions, however, they are just that: opinions. End of the line is, this is our snake and will be kept healthy until the time comes that it dies from natural causes.

 

[gitrdone0420]

First, I have done some research and have found, that yes, they are normally culled or given away as pets. That much I agree with you on.

However, there is NO reason to destroy a healthy, beautiful animal because of a genetic defect that has no immediate health issues. That said, this is a beautiful animal and WILL NOT be destroyed.

You are entitled to you opinions, however, they are just that: opinions. End of the line is, this is our snake and will be kept healthy until the time comes that it dies from natural causes.

Thank you babe, you took the words straight out of my mouth.
I am highly disappointed that someone would even mention me killing one of my PETS just because of a defect. I guess I should kill my dog because she has epilepsy, and I guess the little girl that comes over every Sunday for therapeutic riding, should be killed because she has down syndrome and autism.
You are certainly entitled to your own opinion, sir, but I find it very rude for you to share such a disturbing one. I am a veterinary technician and in my job, if we killed every single patient that had a slight problem, we wouldn't have any left.
This rat snake is highly loved and appreciated and until it shows signs of having health issues, at that time it's genetic "defects" will be addressed.

 

[M_surinamensis]

However, there is NO reason to destroy a healthy, beautiful animal because of a genetic defect that has no immediate health issues.

There absolutely is such a reason.

The trait is a negative one. It negatively affects the animal's visual acuity and makes the animal more susceptible to eye injuries and difficulties shedding. It is known to have a genetic cause that can be passed on to subsequent generations. Furthermore, to compound the issue, due to irresponsible culling and breeding practices related to the introduction and early propagation of the leucistic morph, it is a genetic defect that is widespread in the captive population- it can be difficult to determine which animals are carriers of the trait when not displaying the defect.

Since the animal in question can live for twenty-twenty five years and since you cannot guarantee, beyond all possibility of doubt, that it will remain in your possession for that duration, it is irresponsible to assume that it can be kept out of the breeding population and simultaneously alive.

For the benefit and health of the entire captive population, the responsible action when a negative genetic trait is known to exist is to cull the animals in question.

I am highly disappointed that someone would even mention me killing one of my PETS just because of a defect. I guess I should kill my dog because she has epilepsy.

I have no idea if epilepsy in dogs is a genetically transmitted trait or not. Defects that are a result of formative issues or injury- which are known to be formative or a result of injury, about which there is no possibility of transmission, do not need to be treated in the same manner as those with a definite genetic cause. Furthermore, your dog can be spayed or neutered, preventing any possibility of it passing along negative genetic tendencies, if epilepsy does have a genetic basis for the species.

You cannot have the same thing done to most reptiles, for a number of reasons. The overall mass of the animal, the particular physiology that makes surgeries and anesthesia much riskier and the difficulty in finding a vet who is qualified to do so to begin with, much less one that is willing to make the attempt on an animal weighing so little.

I guess the little girl that comes over every Sunday for therapeutic riding, should be killed because she has down syndrome and autism.

That's just asinine.

I am telling you that the responsible and ethical course of action when you end up in possession of an animal with a known genetic defect is to cull it, to prevent any possibility of its reproduction. Since neutering is not an option for the species in question, a humane euthanasia is the correct choice.

I did not say anything at all about human children and it's an absurd hyperbolic intentional misrepresentation of my position to drive the discussion in that direction. It's not even a well disguised attempt at a strawman tactic. Ultimately you're going to do what you're going to do, no matter how reckless or unethical your choice may be- you're much better off just stating that you will be ignoring my posts and doing the wrong thing than you are trying to justify your weak position with such flimsy crap.

What's next? Going to trip over Godwin's Law?

You are certainly entitled to your own opinion, sir, but I find it very rude for you to share such a disturbing one.

I find it rude that you're willing to prioritize your personal desires to own an animal over the well being of that animal and the entire captive population of the species. Your priorities are reprehensible.

I am a veterinary technician and in my job, if we killed every single patient that had a slight problem, we wouldn't have any left.

This is not "a problem" this is "a genetic defect that has negatively impacted significant portions of the captive population of the species that should be addressed whenever it arises for the ultimate benefit of all future generations."

When a problem is treatable, you treat. When a problem is untreatable but limited to one specific animal (a result of illness, injury or incubation), you make a decision based on the quality of life. When a problem is genetic, you cull in such a manner that all possibility of the animal's entry into the breeding population is removed, either through sterilization or euthanasia.

I'm shocked that your vet tech courses didn't cover the topic of ethics. You'd think it would have come up at some point during those exhaustive and comprehensive years of arduous study. I wonder if the same lax standards apply for all those correspondence schools that tell me I can become a dental assistant or paralegal in my spare time.

 

[gitrdone0420]

I'm not going to argue with you anymore and I'm not going to kill my animal. I'm not breeding this snake and he is showing no signs of difficulty. End of discussion.

 

[Ratman667]

M_surinamensis, you can tell us to kill the snake all you want. All you are achieving is making yourself look like an ass. There is no hard documented proof that the bug eye trait is a negative one. Everything that I have read states that while widely undesirable in the breeding population, besides slightly bad vision, there is nothing negative about the trait.

I am sure everyone here smelled troll from your first post in this thread.

This requires no response from you.

 

[L-G-C]

The person who owns the snake isn't going to breed it so why cull it? Sure a pet might have a defect, but doesn't always mean bad things. I have a freind with a blind cat and it still eats fine. I say if its eating and moving around fine plus in no pain, there is no reason to cull it.

 

[Tony C]

The person who owns the snake isn't going to breed it so why cull it? Sure a pet might have a defect, but doesn't always mean bad things. I have a freind with a blind cat and it still eats fine. I say if its eating and moving around fine plus in no pain, there is no reason to cull it.

The reason for culling is clearly explained in this post. That snake would not have made it out into the hobby if I had been the breeder.

 

[robin]

The person who owns the snake isn't going to breed it so why cull it? Sure a pet might have a defect, but doesn't always mean bad things. I have a freind with a blind cat and it still eats fine. I say if its eating and moving around fine plus in no pain, there is no reason to cull it.

i believe what seamus is trying to get at is that in the possible 25 year life span, can they make sure it will never be bred. they may have no intention so breed the animal but lets say one of them gets very ill and no longer can care for the snake. when they sell it or give it away who is to say those people will not breed it.

 

[Gregg M]

M_surinamensis, you can tell us to kill the snake all you want. All you are achieving is making yourself look like an ass. There is no hard documented proof that the bug eye trait is a negative one. Everything that I have read states that while widely undesirable in the breeding population, besides slightly bad vision, there is nothing negative about the trait.

I am sure everyone here smelled troll from your first post in this thread.

This requires no response from you.

Firstly I would like to say that I am a firm believer in true culling... True culling is actuall killing the animal to ensure that the weak or bad genetics never make it out into the captive population...

Secondly, Seamus is not looking like anything other than someone who has a valid concern about genetic defects being propagated into our captive stocks... And very rightly so... And as a reminder, let please keep the name calling down... There is no need for it and it can turn a good conversation bad... Please refrain...

There is plenty of hard documented evidence that the bugeyed trait in rat snakes does have a negative effect on its eyesight and shedding issues that can and will eventually lead to eye infections...

Seamus is a respected member of the community and far from a troll... He just says what most will not... Rusty, I really like you and you are a knowledgeable dude but you are a little off in this instance... If you really read what Seamus is writting, you will see he is no dummy and has some very valid points that are mostly backable with documentation..

If I were breeding rat snakes and I hatched out bugeyed neonates, they would go right from the incubation container, into the Varanid cages (every breeder should own monitors)... I can never sell "pet quality" reptiles... Anything I produce and sell is nothing short of strong, healthy, top quality breeding stock... Anything with any type of deformation is delt with as soon as the defect is noticed... I do not care if it can be passed down genetically or not... It is what any responsible breeder is expected to do...

 

[M_surinamensis]

i believe what seamus is trying to get at is that in the possible 25 year life span, can they make sure it will never be bred. they may have no intention so breed the animal but lets say one of them gets very ill and no longer can care for the snake. when they sell it or give it away who is to say those people will not breed it.

Exactly. It may seem like a fairly remote possibility to someone who has every intention of keeping an animal for its full natural lifespan but there are completely unpredictable factors which can dramatically alter that plan. This puts the burden of doing the right thing on the owner immediately, rather than allowing for a delayed half-measure (like not intending to breed the animal in question) as an appropriate solution.

If something happens to me I know exactly where my animals are all going. It's planned for, it's written down, it's actually legally binding. I know that the person who would own them thinks the same way I do about this kind of issue. I still cull every time it is necessary, even when it means a financial loss, even when it means I no longer own an animal that I really wanted to own. It's just the responsible thing to do.

Secondly, Seamus is not looking like anything other than someone who has a valid concern about genetic defects being propagated into our captive stocks... And very rightly so...

That was my primary motivation for participation in the thread that spawned this, yep.

For a long time breeding reptiles in captivity was a pretty tricky thing to accomplish. Still is with many species. These days everyone has the benefit of decades of someone else's research and trial and error and a dozen web sites with handy ready to follow numbered instructions- the variables have been tested and for some species, popular species, eliminated.

When it was still considered more difficult though, when it was the pinnacle of achievement for someone who was keeping reptiles to actually manage to get them to reproduce successfully- the only people who were engaged in the activity of reptile breeding were those who were extremely well educated and experienced, who already intrinsically understood the ethical questions and used sound judgment when it came to the choice of what and when to breed. The how was, at the time, the tricky part of things.

Somehow as that information was discovered and tested and became common knowledge, such that almost anyone can have success breeding many of the more common species without much real effort- the idea of passing along the knowledge of what and when to breed was lost. Information about how to breed is everywhere. Very few books or websites discuss the ethical implications of choosing to create more animals though. The ideas of responsible culling, careful selection of breeding stock and having a plan in advance for what to do with the potential offspring seems to be largely absent.

The morph markets often exacerbated some of these issues. The inevitable decline in value as the supply of animals displaying or carrying the trait rose put a strong emphasis on profitability, on pushing for the maximum number of offspring. Sometimes unintentionally and sometimes as a direct result of unscrupulous and frequently dishonest individuals, this has resulted in a few widespread genetic disasters hitting the open market. Bug eyed leucistic (and these days, visually normal) texas rat snakes, kahl line albino boas with deformed or missing eyes, wobbling and extreme spinal kinks associated with some ball python morphs- and so on.

Anyone who chooses to own an animal should be aware of the ethical responsibilities that they are accepting through their ownership. They have a responsibility not just to their own individual pets but to the entire captive population and to every other animal owner. They should never allow an animal with a potentially (or in the case of some of the better known issues, definitely) genetic deformity to continue to exist. They should never purchase such animals, since doing so only supports the creation of more deformed stock and keeps the less than ethical producers in business.

Thus... culling.

Seamus is a respected member of the community

Not necessarily this specific community though. I'd wager most of the member base doesn't have the slightest clue who I am.

and far from a troll... He just says what most will not...

That's true. I'm not very cuddly and I do tend to be attracted to topics that are a little more complex. I don't usually go out of my way to participate on subjects that a simple web search could quickly and easily provide a definitive answer about. I like the discussions dealing with ethics and evolution, with non-basic topics, with rare animals (or, of course, anything that is a personal favorite).

I'm not a troll. I'm just not someone who bothers to take the time to write things of the "Nice pic, it sure is a cutey, smiley face smiley face smiley face!" variety.

If I were breeding rat snakes and I hatched out bugeyed neonates, they would go right from the incubation container, into the Varanid cages (every breeder should own monitors)... I can never sell "pet quality" reptiles... Anything I produce and sell is nothing short of strong, healthy, top quality breeding stock... Anything with any type of deformation is delt with as soon as the defect is noticed... I do not care if it can be passed down genetically or not... It is what any responsible breeder is expected to do...

I knew there was a reason I liked you. Well... this and the way I am pretty sure you'd physically rend a venomoid producer into small quivering chunks with your bare hands.

Edited in: Response to Robin.

 

[robin]

I'm not a troll. I'm just not someone who bothers to take the time to write things of the "Nice pic, it sure is a cutey, smiley face smiley face smiley face!" variety.

you are my squishy, cute lil cuddly, smiley faced irish lover man LOL

 

[M_surinamensis]

I am pretty sure my first interaction with Robin was an internet fight over... something... about six years ago. So those of you who don't like me should take her responses as a warning. I'll grow on you.

... like atheletes foot.

Given what I know you can do with your tongue though Robin, you feel free to give me a call if Russ ends up dying because a frozen hunk of airline toilet matter is released over the lot behind the Circle K, tragically cutting short his life.

 

[robin]

I am pretty sure my first interaction with Robin was an internet fight over... something... about six years ago. So those of you who don't like me should take her responses as a warning. I'll grow on you.

... like atheletes foot.

Given what I know you can do with your tongue though Robin, you feel free to give me a call if Russ ends up dying because a frozen hunk of airline toilet matter is released over the lot behind the Circle K, tragically cutting short his life.

ohh that shack behind circle k LOL
needless to say seamus knows his stuff. he is not a troll and if you just take the time lo look past his rough exterior you can learn some quite knowledgeable info.

anyways back on topic.



p.s. many an internet fight seamus.

 

[robin]

i agree with culling genetic or not i do not want to take the chance of passing on any possible negative trait. i will euthanize any kink tails, weak animals etc.

now i know the enigma debate will come into this and i work with them. they are what they are sure in severe cases putting them down is the best thing. i know seamus will disagree and say all of them should be put down. i do not care.