Calcium vs. Calcium + D3

[reptinut]

I've gotten a bit confused on this subject. Which is better?

 

[lar20]

some people say u need them both but calcium with d/3 is a must. i have found that a lot of leo owners just keep a dish of calcium with d/3 in there and dust their feeders once or twice a week with it. you cant dust to much with d/3 because they can over dose on it and die but they also need it to help process calcium which they also need to survive.

 

[Palor]

I use plain calcium for the in tank calcium dish and dust feeders with Calc+D3

 

[reptinut]

i know many folks are pro-D3 but i read in a few other places that D3 doesnt do much good and not much is understood about the good of powdered D3.

 

[airsofteen]

i didn't vote because i use d3 on the animals and 0% d3 in th dish

 

[Haligren]

Non-D3 calcium in the tanks at all times, and calcium with D3 dusting every feeding day, with one day every month with just vitamin dusting.

 

[snowgyre]

I have used calcium with D3 for years with no ill effects with my geckos. I think the geckos are capable of self-regulating themselves when the calcium + D3 is given in a dish in the tank. The ratio of Ca to D3 is the important part. I honestly don't believe that a gecko in good health is at any risk of overdosing on D3 by consuming the calcium powder. Geckos would have to be gorging themselves on the calcium powder to even come close to being at risk. I've never had a problem with egg laying females either.

I've used calcium powder and calcium powder +D3 and have observed no differences between the two. The CA+D3 is easier to find and generally cheaper anyway. However, this topic has almost been as heated as the whole sand argument, but unlike with sand, I think the examples of animals actually getting hurt by D3 overdosing is far less than the negative aspects of keeping geckos on sand.

 

[fred4790]

i use the calcium w/o D3, but now, im tryin to keep my Leos w/o calcium, but using zeolite powder..
many ppl here use zeolite or dolomite powder as substrate, theres no impaction report cause of using zeolite powder.. n they said that zeolite or dolomite contain calcium..

 

[ElapidSVT]

. you cant dust to much with d/3 because they can over dose on it and die

I've heard people say this before. do you have any proof that this has *ever* happened?

 

[snowgyre]

I find it funny that everyone is worried about this, and yet you now see milk and orange juice with vitamin D in it. I wonder how many people buy those without even realizing that the vitamin is fat soluble and can bioaccumulate? I'll be interested to see if a lawsuit appears someday.

Still, it's the ratio of calcium to D3 that's important. If geckos eat enough powder to fulfill their dietary requirements for calcium without becoming saturated with D3 because they're eating more than they're processing, it's all good. I honestly don't think it's an issue.

 

[Allen Repashy]

Still, it's the ratio of calcium to D3 that's important. If geckos eat enough powder to fulfill their dietary requirements for calcium without becoming saturated with D3 because they're eating more than they're processing, it's all good. I honestly don't think it's an issue.

This is completely wrong. Too much calcium with, or without D-3 acts as a binder and prevents the absorption of other nutrients. From Vitamin A, to just plain digesting the meal. Calcium is an ant-acid and too much of it just shuts down absorption in the gut by neutralizing stomach acid. One 500 mg tums is enough to reduce digestion in a 150 pound human... what do you think that does to the digestion of a 30 gram gecko. More than 2% calcium in a diet is detrimental imho, and a lot of people exceed this with their methods.

 

[StatikStepz]

I'm not entirely sue if i agree with the whole calcium + d3 thing being bad for them... for 2 reasons... I feel that if you have a gatorade cap in the tank with calcium+d3 in it, like i do, that the geckos know what their body needs, and will not overindulge themselves and cause them to "overdose"... that when they "lap" it up, they know how to regulate their bodies, and will only take what they need... And for the 2nd reason that one time, i was hand feeding one of my baby geckos a superworm, not realizing how close my hand was by the gatorade cap, and the superworm dropped out of my hand and into the calcium sand+3... before i could even get it out, with the baby gecko being as fast as he was, he ran over, and tried to eat it out of the cap while it was wiggling around in there... well he missed, and took a HUGE mouthful of the supplement... kind of shook his head a little, and spit some out, but nonetheless, the amount that he still took in, compared to the body size of it being a baby, was alot. I was worried at first, but then figured that whats done is done, and not much i could do about it at that point, so i just had to wait and see what happened.... So the next day, i checked on it, and he was just alive and rambunctious as he had always been... this happened about 2 weeks ago, and he is still just fine. So that pretty much settled any doubts i had, for the most part. That if a baby can handle that much intake of the d3, then an adult (or even baby) deff. would be able to handle a few licks of a calcium+d3 supplement in the tank, without overdosing.

 

[leogecko88]

I use a light dusting of calcium on my feeders daily. Calcium/D3 is used once a week. And I keep a dish of calcium in the terrarium at all times.

 

[JordanAng420]

I'm going to stay out of the entire debate.

I do have one question for everybody though. Does anyone have links or personal experiances with documented cases of ANY lizard that has suffered from a Vitamin D3 overdose?

Of all the veterinarians i've ever worked for that see reptiles, and all the veterinarians i've ever talked to...at veterinary conferences an such...none of them have treated a lizard, let alone a leopard gecko, from a vitamin D3 overdose. I'd be curious to see if anyone has any other information about this...

 

[danny662boy]

ok so in the tank in the gatorade cap.. is there calcium with d3? or without??

 

[Gregg M]

Still, it's the ratio of calcium to D3 that's important.

Actually you are thinking about the ratio between calcium and phosphorus...

Of all the veterinarians i've ever worked for that see reptiles, and all the veterinarians i've ever talked to...at veterinary conferences an such...none of them have treated a lizard, let alone a leopard gecko, from a vitamin D3 overdose. I'd be curious to see if anyone has any other information about this...

No offence but I seriously think the words veterinarian and reptile should not be even spoken in the same sentence for the most part...

As rediculous as this may sound, I trust my own judgement and knowledge over most vets when it comes to reptiles...

You have a sick gecko...
You bring it to Dr. Doe...
He/she looks at the gecko...
Dr. Doe gives you antibiotics:main_huh:and liquid calcium...
Gecko eventually dies...
You bring it back to Dr. Doe...
Dr. Doe does a necropsy...
Dr. Doe says the geckos liver/kidney/heart failed...
The thing is, the actual cause is almost never looked into...

Vitamin D3 is not even a vitamin... It is a steroid hormone...

Any living thing can od on it...
D3 overdose can lead to hypercalcaemia, heart, liver and kidney damage/failure.

Some symptoms of D3 overdose are...
vomiting
anorexia
weakness

How many reptiles in the last year have had these symptoms and have died of heart, liver, or kidney failure just on this forum??? The bad part is that necropsies are rarely done and when they are done, they are incomplete...

Too much D3 also keeps the body from metabolizing ingested fats...

 

[DarthGekko]

Actually you are thinking about the ratio between calcium and phosphorus...



No offence but I seriously think the words veterinarian and reptile should not be even spoken in the same sentence for the most part...

As rediculous as this may sound, I trust my own judgement and knowledge over most vets when it comes to reptiles...

You have a sick gecko...
You bring it to Dr. Doe...
He/she looks at the gecko...
Dr. Doe gives you antibiotics:main_huh:and liquid calcium...
Gecko eventually dies...
You bring it back to Dr. Doe...
Dr. Doe does a necropsy...
Dr. Doe says the geckos liver/kidney/heart failed...
The thing is, the actual cause is almost never looked into...

Vitamin D3 is not even a vitamin... It is a steroid hormone...

Any living thing can od on it...
D3 overdose can lead to hypercalcaemia, heart, liver and kidney damage/failure.

Some symptoms of D3 overdose are...
vomiting
anorexia
weakness

How many reptiles in the last year have had these symptoms and have died of heart, liver, or kidney failure just on this forum??? The bad part is that necropsies are rarely done and when they are done, they are incomplete...

Too much D3 also keeps the body from metabolizing ingested fats...

This is all too true. You could use something like Minerall w/o D3 and give them Minerall w/D3 once per month and your geckos should be fine. Too much calcium can impede digestion as well. Allen Repashy just commented on this not too long ago on here.....

 

[JordanAng420]

Actually you are thinking about the ratio between calcium and phosphorus...



No offence but I seriously think the words veterinarian and reptile should not be even spoken in the same sentence for the most part...

As rediculous as this may sound, I trust my own judgement and knowledge over most vets when it comes to reptiles...

You have a sick gecko...
You bring it to Dr. Doe...
He/she looks at the gecko...
Dr. Doe gives you antibiotics:main_huh:and liquid calcium...
Gecko eventually dies...
You bring it back to Dr. Doe...
Dr. Doe does a necropsy...
Dr. Doe says the geckos liver/kidney/heart failed...
The thing is, the actual cause is almost never looked into...

Vitamin D3 is not even a vitamin... It is a steroid hormone...

Any living thing can od on it...
D3 overdose can lead to hypercalcaemia, heart, liver and kidney damage/failure.

Some symptoms of D3 overdose are...
vomiting
anorexia
weakness

How many reptiles in the last year have had these symptoms and have died of heart, liver, or kidney failure just on this forum??? The bad part is that necropsies are rarely done and when they are done, they are incomplete...

Too much D3 also keeps the body from metabolizing ingested fats...

Okay, i'll give you that one. It's true...I guess i've been lucky enough to work with people that actually keep reptiles themselves & have a better understanding than most...anyway...you have a good point.

What i'm saying is...i've never witnessed or heard of it actually happening in animal. Obviously it CAN happen, there's no denying that...but it seems that it wouldn't be that easy for an animal to overdose on D3...just by calcium supplementation alone.

I dunno. Again, just my opinion. I knew I shoulda just kept my darn mouth shut.

 

[Gregg M]

I dunno. Again, just my opinion. I knew I shoulda just kept my darn mouth shut.

:main_laugh:Now that is a silly statement... Your opinion is just as valid as anyone elses... Keep on postin!!!:main_thumbsup:

 

[SFgeckos]

great discussion

"Vitamin D3 is not even a vitamin... It is a steroid hormone..."

Technically, that statement is incorrect.

Vitamin D3, which is commonly referred to as "cholecalciferol", is actually a secosteriod. Secosteriods are compounds very similar to steriods but are chemically slightly different. I'm a bit rusty, but I believe they are missing links in two carbon chains.

Jon