Hainanensis and ??

Big Red One

New Member
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328
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North West England,UK
Folks,

I have an unsexed pair of Hainanensis (only tiny at the moment), plus also a sub-adult pair which were meant to be Lichtenfelderi.
On the sub-adults (male and female) pair, I still think they may actually be Hainy's as the nuchal loop extends to the eye and this is supposed to be a visual clue.

I know they are real tricky to tell apart, without scale counts or knowing for sure their original source locations (neither of which I can get..).


So, any ideas, I would like to keep them all together later on if the babies are female, but obviously wouldn't if they are Lichtenfelderi/Hainanensis.

Pics Below :

Baby Hainy 1

Baby2GHainanensis2June09.jpg


Baby Hainy 2

BabyGHainanensis1June09.jpg


Female Lichtenfelderi (?)

FemaleGLichtenfelderi1June09.jpg


Male Lichtenfelderi (?)

MaleGLichtenfelderi1June09.jpg


Pics were just quickies when moving them to their new home - so apologies for the quality !
 

paulnj

New Member
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The adults are G. Lichtenfelderi Hainanensis . I know of only one person with pure G.Lichtenfelderi in the US.
 

Big Red One

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The adults are G. Lichtenfelderi Hainanensis . I know of only one person with pure G.Lichtenfelderi in the US.

Cheers Paul.

I wasn't aware that G. Lichtenfelderi Hainanensis were a defined subspecies - I thought they were either G. Lichtenfelderio or G.Hainanensis ? :main_huh:

Anyhow - I am in UK and these came from Germany. I don't want to mix the 2 pairs up if they may muddy the water even further as it were ! ;)
 

paulnj

New Member
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G Lichtenfelderi have very narrow bands compared to the hainanensis subspecies which is far more readily available in the hobby.
 

paulnj

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G.Lichtenfelderi are from Vietnam , while G.L. Hainanensis are from the island of Hainan off the coast of China.
 

Big Red One

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I have a great reference book - 'The Eyelash Geckos' by Seufer/Kaverkin/Kirschnerl..

In this book it does not mention anything about banding on the body as a differential between the subspecies. Have you got a link or something Paul that I could look at, I'd be really interested as I understood that only scale counts and similar low level indicators could truly differentiate if the source location was unknown?

Thanks in advance... :main_thumbsup:
 

KelliH

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Fort Worth, TX
So it would seem that all of the wild caught ones we see offered now are hainanens. Not lichtenfelderi and not crosses.

From what I have read in the Eyelash Geckos book and from what I have read on the Net, the bands are sometimes more narrow but not always. I think it's very hard to tell.
 

geckomaster

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As priorly stated there are only a few people in the world working with true lichtenfelderi. Phil Tremper here in the states and those who have bought from him. In Europe you have Yuri Klaverkin (whom if memory serves me correct is where Phil got his stock from), Markus S. and one or two others, though I believe with the possible exception of Markus the other stocks come from Yuri as well. This is also true of the majority of Japanese species in which all specimens in the trade currently come from just a handful of animals, once again the exception being Markus who has unrelated Kuroiwae, Yamashinae, and Orientalis to those currently in the trade. In the latest journal the three groups of gonis identified to this date on Hainan island are said to have made their way there in three different migrations. Those three species are bawanglingensis, luii, and hainanensis which are described as a sister taxon to the lichtenfelderi. Also there has been a new species just discovered as well. It is called goniurosaurus yingdeensis and are Uber-Cool loooking. The biggest issue facing breeders of goniurosaurus at this time is inbreeding. While there may be different lines of splendens, matjaz, etc... they all came from Yuri. All orientalis as well came from just two pairs from my understanding so line breeding of the japanese species should be avoided at all costs and animals bred together should come from different breeding programs in my opinion to limit the negative effects of the current genetic situation. I mention this because as we see new species are being discovered and with the hainanensis being the only animal currently being exported, along with the number of us working with them we have the ability to create a captive bred culture with this species in which genetic diversity is both rich and productive.
 

supperl

G.Man <- ask HJ
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These lichtenfelderi originaly came from Marek @happyreptiles.eu
I bought the 4 geckos and sold them to Mark as I decided to focus on fattails.

I´m pretty sure Marek has real lichtenfelderi, he is a realy exact breeder :)
 

Big Red One

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These lichtenfelderi originaly came from Marek @happyreptiles.eu
I bought the 4 geckos and sold them to Mark as I decided to focus on fattails.

I´m pretty sure Marek has real lichtenfelderi, he is a realy exact breeder :)

Cheers Thorsten !

I'm definitely keeping them as separate groups anyway and will treat them as Lichtenfelderi and Hainanensis pairs.....
:main_thumbsup:
 

paulnj

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Sorry my friend, but that is not a lichtenfelderi due to the head band touching the mouth. Matt B got mislabeled hainanensis also from Hamm awhile back.
 

geckomaster

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Chicago, IL
I'd be careful using the head bands as the only distinguishing factor as it doesn't always hold true. The only true way to tell is knowing where they came from (Hainan island or Vietamese mainland) and that goes to the breeder from which they came. And just because the breeder says they are lichtenfelderi doesn't mean they are as there is still much confusion in the trade regarding the difference. They should be able to back it up. All true lichtenfelderi's in the trade come from just a couple of original sources.

Note the picture in the following article and the statement that lichtenfelderi "exhibit significant overlap with hainanensis in several morphological characters", and "Molecular work may be necessary to determine species designations and population differentation in this group"

http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q...dx0y__&sig=AHIEtbSP1gc5krVmny247k2HTL1GhOiEcQ

Either way you have some great looking geckos. I too got a "lichtenfelderi" that came from a breeder in Germany for $135 shipped. It is now the most expensive Hainanensis in my collection:main_rolleyes:
 

Big Red One

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Sorry my friend, but that is not a lichtenfelderi due to the head band touching the mouth. Matt B got mislabeled hainanensis also from Hamm awhile back.

Yep - there is a theory that this can be a differentiator and I mentioned this before. However it does not look to be conclusive, certainly as indicated in the report linked by Geckomaster.

I'd be careful using the head bands as the only distinguishing factor as it doesn't always hold true. The only true way to tell is knowing where they came from (Hainan island or Vietamese mainland) and that goes to the breeder from which they came. And just because the breeder says they are lichtenfelderi doesn't mean they are as there is still much confusion in the trade regarding the difference. They should be able to back it up. All true lichtenfelderi's in the trade come from just a couple of original sources.

Note the picture in the following article and the statement that lichtenfelderi "exhibit significant overlap with hainanensis in several morphological characters", and "Molecular work may be necessary to determine species designations and population differentation in this group"

http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q...dx0y__&sig=AHIEtbSP1gc5krVmny247k2HTL1GhOiEcQ

Either way you have some great looking geckos. I too got a "lichtenfelderi" that came from a breeder in Germany for $135 shipped. It is now the most expensive Hainanensis in my collection:main_rolleyes:

Exactly - which is why I intend to treat them as two seperate subspecies as no-one seems to know for certain, though as Thorsten has mentioned they come from a respected source who would ultimately be the only one to confirm their source or parentage.

I certainly don't want any 'crossbreeding' from the 2 pairs (assuming that is biologically feasible - see no reason why not if they are split from the same source location way back in time). It's very unclear even from information from the experts that other than scale counts and knowing the locations animals originate form that you can distinguish between the two subspecies.

The photos in the linked report certainly seem to show that the nuchal loop is not consistent as a decider.....
All interesting stuff folks !
 

eric

OREGON GECKO
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Oregon
There are two major differences between G.hainanensis and G. lichtenfelderi according to "The Eyelash Gecko Book" which I have found to be the best resource for what little information we have on these two Goniurosaurus. Position of the nuchal loop in G. hainanensis touch the back of the eye and G. lichtenfelderi it does not. Also the number of eye-lid fringes, G.hainanensis has 55-68 and G. lichtenfelderi has 43-56.

Originally in 1987, Grismer classified the Hainan Leopard gecko as Goniurosaurus lichtenfelderi hainanensis given it the status of subspecies but later in 1999 he recognized it as a separate species. Thus splitting the Norway gecko Goniurosaurus lichtenfelderi and the Hainan Leopard gecko Goniurosaurus hainanensis as separate species.

The information is out there, the more we dig the more we learn, as for all the wild caught caves that came into the states with in the last few months it is my opinion that they are all either crosses or both G. lichtenfelderi and G. hainanensis, I'm leaning toward crosses, a few have even been sold as Goniurosaurus lichtenfelderi hainanensis. Giving them a subspecies title as G. lichtenfelderi hainanensis in my opinion is misleading and not right. I find this to be lazy on the part of the seller. In my findings I've hatched out Goni's that resemble both lichtenfelderi and hainanensis hatchlings. I'm still working on eye-lid fringe counts on the W/C breeding adults but three of the offspring resemble lichtenfelderi and three resemble hainanensis, unfortunately I believe the point is probably moot.
 

geckomaster

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Chicago, IL
Those are some interesting points from a very solid source. Upon examining my animals and re-reading some descriptors of lichtenfelderi from Markus's site as well as the info in the above post I may have to retract my previous statement to allow for some traits that are unique to each of the two species. There is most likely some mixture of both lichtenfelderi and hainanensis in older more established collections that came from wild caughts that were coming in from both China and Vietnam a few years ago, back when you could find luii and araneus as well. Everything now though, is most likely coming from China/Hainan Island as I haven't seen anything else come from Vietnam in some time goni wise. I spoke to one exporter from Vietnam some time back and inquired about them and he said they were very rare and hard to find (He then sent me a price list of the easy stuff which included gecko wine, scorpion tails in bulk for medicinal purposes, and other ghastly items which pretty much ended my curiosity in regards to what the exporters were seeing in the trade...shudder!). All in all we may be going in circles, but it's a fun conversation. It's really going to get interesting when they start comparing mainlaind luii to those on Hainan island and the possibility of separate species arises as well.
 

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