Legal action against Mealworm supplier???

[Gregg M]

I did not want to take away from the importance of Marcias post about the heart breaking season she and some others are having. Besides, this topic is much more fitting in this forum. I saw this brought up a couple of times in the other thread so I figured it was worth bringing up here.

So, are the main worm suppliers accountable for the loss of eggs/embryos even if it were proven that they are contaminated in some way???

Lets say it was insecticides in what the supplier fed the worms. Are they at fault or is the grain supplier at fault??? Now if the grain supplier is the blame, would it not be normal for there to be atleast some level of insecticide on or in the food??? Lets face it, the only foods without insecticides are meats, some dairy, and organic produce.

That is just one example of why I think legal action would be a big waste of time and money. Time and money that can go into correcting the problem and keeping it from going to round 2...

 

[Sandra]

Thanks Gregg for posting this thread.

So, are the main worm suppliers accountable for the loss of eggs/embryos even if it were proven that they are contaminated in some way???

I'd like to say yes, but probably not. 100 people could testify that they had a much lower production while feeding the mealworms and that it suddenly got better when they stopped feeding them, and we would receive the same answer: "it could be just a coincidence" (but then I wonder why do we have witnesses at all in courts).

So if the tested mealworms gave any worrying result, personally I would just charge them for exposing pets to food poisoning and not for all the financial losses.

Lets say it was insecticides in what the supplier fed the worms. Are they at fault or is the grain supplier at fault??? Now if the grain supplier is the blame, would it not be normal for there to be atleast some level of insecticide on or in the food??? Lets face it, the only foods without insecticides are meats, some dairy, and organic produce.

In that case I would charge the grain supplier. I know most vegetables are protected with pesticides or insecticides, but there must be some kind of sanitazion before they are sold for consumption, don't you think? If you buy some vegetables and leave them exposed, all kind of insects will eat them without suffering any consequences. That means that from the moment they were on the market they were suitable even for insect consumption. Why wasn't the grain the mealworm supplier used?

That is just one example of why I think legal action would be a big waste of time and money. Time and money that can go into correcting the problem and keeping it from going to round 2...

You are probably right. That would be the most convenient response. But it makes me angry to see people do this kind of things and going unpunished because the affected ones are too lazy to take actions.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

That is just one example of why I think legal action would be a big waste of time and money.

I agree. Like I stated a few times in the other thread, it would be almost impossible to even prove without the cooperation of everyone that is having these problems. No one would have any true legal recourse unless we would prove there was negligence and/or deliberate malice on the part of the feeder or the bedding suppliers.

I only suggested finding an attorney to send a demand letter that requires them to tell us what exactly caused the problem with the mealworms. If we had a straight answer from the mealworm company, then we would know why we might be having these issues with our geckos!

 

[LadyGecko]

I agree. Like I stated a few times in the other thread, it would be almost impossible to even prove without the cooperation of everyone that is having these problems. No one would have any true legal recourse unless we would prove there was negligence and/or deliberate malice on the part of the feeder or the bedding suppliers.

I only suggested finding an attorney to send a demand letter that requires them to tell us what exactly caused the problem with the mealworms. If we had a straight answer from the mealworm company, then we would know why we might be having these issues with our geckos!

I agree Marcia
It would be very helpful to know the truth about exactly what the problems with the mealworms are
The truth would be a very refreshing thing-but i don't see it happening my time soon
What I possibly do see is people just plain refusing to purchase meal worms from now on and using the many alternative feeders or the people that had been culturing their own continuing with just doing so

A major loss in revenue to the meal worm producers may force them to come clean-then maybe it won't

I would think that we-the reptile keepers-account for a very large majority of their sales

I just don't know.........

It is a very sad and tragic situation if indeed the meal worms are responsible for the majority of the problems with Leo reproduction this year

It makes me have the sick feeling in my stomach that I had when the contaminated dog food news came out and the consequences of that situation

just my .-02

Sandy

 

[MelissaDiane]

I know many of you had reproduction problems this year. I was wondering if you were seeing a loss in adult Gecko's? I have questioned if this wasn't something that caused Sobe's death. I know mealworms were her main food supply as she just wasn't quick enough to catch the crickets. It appears that she died of an organ problem (Liver & Kidneys). I don't think this is something that is easily proven unless you/I would have an extensive necropsy done & I know that cost a good amount of money. Many of us wouldn't go that far (maybe the big breeders would) but even with that, I still don't know that it can be proven. Plus if the fault came out of China....it would be very hard to go after them as they are overseas & maybe times the supplier in the USA becomes the mfg in law suites.

I think there has to be some actual facts. But this is one that I had questioned when I first got Sobe & she was eating mealworms. If a cricket eats a small amount of hookworm poop & the gecko eats the cricket, then the gecko is infected. If a mealworm eats tainted grains & the gecko eats the mealworm....well it would seem to me that we would see some sort of problems.

Perhaps the mealworm suppliers can explain things better. As a Commercial Lines Underwriter....I always have to think...."What if questions" before considering a piece of business that comes in to be quoted or written.

 

[bohannbj]

I was talking with a long time boa breeder during my last show, and he told me what had happened. I guess he found out what happened from a friend he made during his last 20 years in business. He said that the worm breeders found an insecticide that when fed to the worms, delayed the transformation into pupa so they could be grown larger. Basically they were feeding the insecticide to create the "giant mealies" they recently started selling for $$$. This is also the reason why there was the mealworm shortage, because they fed all the worms this stuff, and then they ended up with no beetles, and in turn no more mealies. Since there is no legal agency for reptile food quality control, like the FDA, you don't really have much of a legal claim for recourse. I would suggest that you itemize your losses this year based on the following criteria: loss of egg production compared to last year and expected egg rates based on age, hatchling mortality rate, and loss due to birth defects. Be as honest as possible on this and remember paying all taxes on this type of business is always smart, becuase (at least for me) the losses and expenses far outway the profits.
Brent

 

[Baoh]

That reads like a juvenile hormone mimetic that is being used as an insect growth regulator to prevent ecdysis. Most (but perhaps not all) of those are specific to insects, though, and harmless to vertebrates. In order to determine if it could have been the cause, I/we would need the name of the compound employed.

 

[bohannbj]

That's all he knew, but I would imagine you could ask the mealworm suppliers and they would tell you. If they refused to tell you, then they might be liable for action.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

Basically they were feeding the insecticide to create the "giant mealies" theyrecently started selling for $$$

I do not believe this is true at all. Giant mealworms are created by treating them with their own growth hormones to postpone the pupation sp they grow bigger.

The insecticide was found in the feeder feed/bedding. Worm breeders are still not sure if it was added to the grain to prevent insects from feeding on it, or if it was used on the growing grain itself. This is what caused the worms to die before they could putate, and what caused the beetles not to breed, and their eggs not to hatch.

This explains the mealworm shortage, but does not answer any of our questions about if and how tainted worms could affect our geckos... especially any long-term problems. Without comprehansive lab analysis and necropsies on deceased geckos, we will probably never know.

 

[Baoh]

All one would need is the compound name. After that, the MSDS can show potential (but not prove causation).

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

Unfortunately, the worm supplier is not giving out any specific information other than "we found pesticide in our mealworm bedding". They have stone walled any questions.

 

[Baoh]

That's a shame.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

Yes. It is a shame.

 

[bohannbj]

All it takes is a subpoena and there are a lot of corporate lawyers twiddling their thumbs right now. If someone was serious about it, that's who I would contact. They litterally have nothing to do in most law firms right now. Fight injustice with words, not guns.
Brent

 

[Snowy & Petra de Gecko]

Legal Action

I would have to say that it is a shame that Geckos died as a result of the contamination.

I also have to say that it is a shame that you cannot get a straight answer from the mealworm suppliers.

To try some sort of legal action would be too expensive unless a Gecko Owner was an attorney and had some free time to determine a course of action and to pursue it.

As for losses, a breeder can deduct only the "cost" or the "adjusted basis" of the Gecko that died. The eggs or babies generally will not have any "adjusted basis" to deduct. I doubt that any breeder allocates any cost of production to the eggs or babies that are produced. You cannot deduct as an expense what would have been if there is not any "adjusted basis" allocated to the eggs or babies.

For an individual owner, if a Gecko died there is no way to deduct either the original cost or the replacement cost. The loss is personal.

Breeders are engaged in a trader or business. They probably file a Schedule C if they are reporting their income. Cash is Cash and some people do not necessarily report it. The expenses associated with production are probably taken as a current period or current year deduction. Since they may meet the standard of a trade or business (or T or B) they are entitled to deduct trade or business expenses.

I am a CPA or Certified Public Accountant and a CFP or Certified Financial Planner. My speciality is Taxes and I have been doing that for a long time.

While Lizard Breeding is not specifically mentioned in the Code (or should I say the Internal Revenue Code) the Breeding of Livestock such as Cows, Steers, Bulls, Horses are (and probably Pigs cause we do not want to leave out the other white meat.) The rules that apply to those types of criters will apply to any business involving the raising of Lizards, Snakes, Spiders or other such criters.

Although I am in Southern California, I have done some tax returns for Farms and Farmers. So I am well aware of what expenses are allowable and I am intimately aware of how to depreciate just about anything.

But, a lass this is a Gecko Forum and not a Tax Forum or Legal Forum.