Muddy Waters......

godzillizard

New Member
Messages
639
Location
Minneapolis, MN
I can't imagine that any gecko lover wouldn't at least be curious to see what a double homo 'albino' looks like...a "Tremp-water" could be breathtaking. Who knows, maybe a Bell/LV cross would look like a Tremper?!? if you do it cleanly honestly and responsibly, I see nothing wrong with it.

How do you expect to clean up these gene pools when we can't legally import the 'chlorine' we'd need? And do you believe we can be honest enough with ourselves to know when we are doing the right or wrong things?
 

godzillizard

New Member
Messages
639
Location
Minneapolis, MN
Of course, but when someone exports a gecko from another country, do they have to prove how and where it came from? I've heard numerous stories of people in other countries getting WC Leos, treating and acclimating them and then sending them straight to the US as if they were captive bred in that country (that we don't have an embargo against).

I also work with Alberto's Afghanicus...does anyone know their specific origin? Are they the only line of Afghanicus in the US?
 
G

geo4leo

Guest
i wonder if the normals from pet store are pure het for nothing normals LG.
 

artgecko

New Member
Messages
353
Location
Winchester, Massachusetts
Interesting discussion,

couple questions:
Robin said:
i also think we as a community need to try and keep a good portion of our SSP pure.
What is 'SSP'? is that subspecies?

Where would we look for the non-het base morphs and the pure subspecies?

I'd be interested in maintaining a stock.
 

Wandering Paddle

New Member
Messages
650
Location
South western virginia
I can't imagine that any gecko lover wouldn't at least be curious to see what a double homo 'albino' looks like...a "Tremp-water" could be breathtaking. Who knows, maybe a Bell/LV cross would look like a Tremper?!? if you do it cleanly honestly and responsibly, I see nothing wrong with it.


How do you expect to clean up these gene pools when we can't legally import the 'chlorine' we'd need? And do you believe we can be honest enough with ourselves to know when we are doing the right or wrong things?
How would you know once you finally got a double or triple homozygous albino?
...the only way i can think of would be to test breed it to a pure albino, but then all of those offspring would again be het or poss het for another albino strain.

Interesting discussion,

couple questions:
Robin said:

What is 'SSP'? is that subspecies?

Where would we look for the non-het base morphs and the pure subspecies?

I'd be interested in maintaining a stock.
I'll be doing a few E.m. afghanicus crosses next year, as well as producing some pure examples... I think the subs are awesome, im hoping the community can get some E.m. turcminicus and E.m. montanus populations going strong.
 

BalloonzForU

New Member
Messages
7,585
Location
Grand Blanc, MI
Some petstores even buy from local breeders. Who knows what genetic goldmines are wasting away in a chain petstore...
Actually it's the pet store mutts that are part of the issue.

To clean up the mess, we need to first know what the hell is in the geckos we are breeding, not just, "I don't know what the parents might be carrying.".

I'm not saying that the projects of a million hets can't be fun to work with, I just think we need to work with clean lines as well.


How would you know once you finally got a double or triple homozygous albino?
...the only way i can think of would be to test breed it to a pure albino, but then all of those offspring would again be het or poss het for another albino strain.
It has been done before, and proved out.
 
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nevinm

Moyer's Monsters
Messages
2,584
Location
bethlehem PA
ill just throw this in there........ i have talked to some of the ppl that crossed them when the bell, and Lv came out to make sure they were different. they said they were normal looking albinos. they did create double homo animals and there was NOTHING special about them
 

Northstar Herp

Rhacs and Uros, oh boy!!!
Messages
1,358
Location
Plaistow, NH
I don't get how you could have a double or triple homo albino, and then what is a "pure" albino? I thought all albinos were either, Tremper, LV or Bell?

Secondly, I'm pretty new to this genetic stuff, but would like to produce some babies this year. I've tried to do my homework so I would be breeding responsibly. I have a tremper female, a raptor, and a het raptor. I think that is ok???

But who knows what my original female is het for??? maybe i will find out when she lays?

Finally, what advice can you oldies give us newbies in choosing what leos to start breeding?
 

OneFootedAce

New Member
Messages
2,173
Location
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
I don't get how you could have a double or triple homo albino, and then what is a "pure" albino? I thought all albinos were either, Tremper, LV or Bell?

Secondly, I'm pretty new to this genetic stuff, but would like to produce some babies this year. I've tried to do my homework so I would be breeding responsibly. I have a tremper female, a raptor, and a het raptor. I think that is ok???

But who knows what my original female is het for??? maybe i will find out when she lays?

Finally, what advice can you oldies give us newbies in choosing what leos to start breeding?
tremper, raptor and het raptors are all crosses from tremper albino, so crossing those would be fine. well even though im not very experienced, the advice ill give you is to be prepared.
 

T-ReXx

Uroplatus Fanatic
Messages
1,745
Location
Buffalo, NY
I agree with a lot of this. I've been trying to keep my animals in some sort of pure order as well. One of the things I think people should be doing is establishing pure lines of elements of combo projects alongside their main projects. This also can give you a use for all those "side effect" animals that you produce creating combo morphs. I work almost exclusively with Snow combos, but along side I'm working on pure lines of Blizzards, Muphy's Patternless, Tremper Albinos and Normals as well. It's taking quite a bit of test breeding, and time, of course, but if the end result is pure lines of base morphs, I'll be quite happy to produce them for years to come. I would love to be a part of a group effort to seperate out base morphs, I think it's a very important concept for the future of leopard geckos as a whole.
 
K

Ko Jones

Guest
cleaning up the mess

first the waters are never going to clear,
with the explosion of leo breeding the past few years, and in particluar the enigma crosses i think we've seen just about everytihng happen that could...

i mean, do you understand what this looks like to the outside community?

i am embrassed when peope, ask about enigmas. to tell them that an animal with a known defect has been purposefully, and intentionally bred, in mass quanitities and released for the sake of huge profits..

i mean let's not joke ourselves breeding is for money and continuance of a species.
hobby breeding is usually done for love and money , if you are lucky.
but to purposefully breed an animal that you cannot truthfully tell someone will NEVER run in circles, Come on., there is a repsonsibility as a breeder to breed healthy animals-to not perpetuate defects!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

the leo community couldn't handle this mess, so don't think they will
'clean up' anything. this genetic mutation was handled as a pure commodity, with marketing and even purposeful routes of sales into the breeding population, it was calculated to gain the most profits possible knowing that it would explode as it is a dominant gene.

how am i supposed to feel when someone asks me about enigmas?
tell them, *maybe *it won't run in circles...
sad. pitiful

the people who discovered it had a chance to do the right thing and they didn't. you can't expect anyone else to fix this now.

as for the million mutt enigma crosses out there, and by products..
i think it;'s clear that the release of the enigma signaled a new phase of leo breeding, the 'i don't care about ethics' phase.

it's disturbing, but i think it gave many people the impression that leo breeders are barely holding onto any ethics whatsoever if at all.

for the people that bought circling enigmas, i am sorry,
for breeders of these animals:
the excuse that 'other animals have been bred before that have known problems' is not a good, one. doesn't make it right.
btw. thanks for adding unhealthy animals to the genetic pool we are dealing with- great

it was done for the wrong reasons, done for money, and it was a huge let down. i am ashamed to tell family and friends about this morph and what it has done to the hobby.

"oh, that morph, well yeah, it runs in circles, sometimes, not always...well the other ones don't do it, yet, as far as i know, what? oh yeah, this is a hugely popular..yes people still sell them and breed them, i know, i know.."

if you were one of the "lucky' ones to get in at the beginning you made some loot, sure. you also sent a clear message to everyone after you:

IT'S OK TO DO ANYTHING YOU WANT IN THE NAME OF YOUR PERSONAL 'DISCOVERY' MISSION TO PROPAGATE ANIMALS AND MAKE MONEY.

there lesson #1 for potential new breeders, do what you want
everyone else does anyway

-professional enigma breeders as a general whole- failed-
 
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