Need Ideas and Help For Possible Tank Set Up

jemjdragon

Member
Messages
240
Location
California, USA
Tank Size: About 100 gallons
Current fish: 2 Blood Parrots (1.75 inches - 2.5 inches in length), 1 Managua Cichlid (1.25 inches in length), 1 Pleco (About 12 inches in length)

Idea For Tank:
Aquarium1.jpg

(Above sketch is front view, bottem sketch is above view)
Possible Plants: 2 Very Large Wisterias, 2 Very Large Amazon Swords, Java Fern, Java Moss, Baby Tears, Chain Sword, 2 Moss Balls, and 2 Anubia

Possible Decorations: 2 Coconut Hides, Slate Pieces/Rock, Large Driftwood

Possible Fishes: Firemouth Cichlid, Green Texas Cichlid, Managua Cichlid, Oscar, Salvini, Green Terror, Blue Jack Dempsey

Okay, so those are my ideas. I know Cichlids dig in gravel but I feel that the Java Moss, Java Fern, and Anubia will be fine since it will be attached to either the coconut or the drift wood. I might not use foreground plants, Baby tears and chain sword. As for the large background plants, I was thinking of surrounding their base loosely with slate so the fish cant dig them up or put them in precleaned terracotta pots to keep them safe.
I would like to know if the possible fish could get allongt with the fish I already have. I really like the Firemouth Ciclids and Blue Jack Dempsy. =]
Any help and ideas woud be great.
 

Pokersnake

Member
Messages
252
Location
Chicagoland IL
I suggest http://aqualandpetsplus.com/ for fish information. They have the most extensive specie by specie care sheets I have ever seen. I don't know of a better free resource.

One thing to remember with cichlids is that they are aggressive and jerks. I know you have a large tank in mind, but they can still decide to be territorial. I would recommend a second smaller recovery tank, because overnight, any one of those fish can pick a fight and possibly kill one another. Usually it takes a few days though, hence the recovery tank.

Remember the rule for fish per gallon: one inch of fish per gallon. And that's just for spacial reasons. These large cichlids get to be really messy. I had one oscar in a 58 gallon and hat to gravel vac it every week. And even then the canister filter would clog ever other week. However, cichlids are some of the most beautiful fish you can get without going salt water.
 

Pokersnake

Member
Messages
252
Location
Chicagoland IL
Oh yeah! Your design looks marvelous. Just expect the fish to decide where the gravel will end up. Non of your plants will stay planted in the gravel, but the attached plants are a great idea. The Slate may encourage some of the cichlids to spawn, in which case, watch out for extra aggressive behavior. A tiny 3 inch Jack Dempsy will terrorize a full grown Oscar into a small corner of the tank. It's kinda funny, but bad at the same time.
 

M_surinamensis

Shillelagh Law
Messages
1,165
Remember the rule for fish per gallon: one inch of fish per gallon.

The number of fish that can be kept in a given volume of space, strictly from a physiological perspective and discounting behavioral factors for the moment, comes down to gas exchange, waste, water chemistry and the metabolism and mass of the fish in question.

Gas exchange can vary based on both the volume of the water and, more importantly, the surface area of the tank, which determines the rate of molecular exchange that replenishes the oxygen in the water. A standard twenty gallon tank and a standard twenty nine gallon tank have the same horizontal measurements and can hold the same number of fish based on gas exchange. Some types of filtration, those which significantly increase the exposure of water traveling through it to air- such as wet/dry trickle filters, can be used to increase this capacity slightly.

The waste produced by the fish, especially ammonia, is quite toxic. The primary method of dealing with this is the use of a healthy biological filter bed. Bacteria that live in the tank and consume the ammonia (producing nitrites, which are consumed by different species of bacteria, producing nitrates, which is used by live plants and blue-green algae or is removed with water changes). The biological filter bed requires surface area for the bacteria to grow on, the open water in the tank contains some few but it largely devoid of them. Since the bacteria grow primarily in the gravel and on the filter media, once again the horizontal area of the tank and the surface area in the filter are important factors.

Chemical properties of the water can also change oxygen saturation and the toxicity of waste.

Different species of fish have different metabolic rates and can require more or less oxygen and produce more or less waste. This is further modified by factors such as the composition of the diet- overfed or fed items which are not digested as well, more waste can be produced than would otherwise be the case.

The overall mass of the fish needs to be considered. If you look at two fish of the same species where one is twice as long as the other, that longer fish is also twice as tall and twice as wide- if the body shape and proportions are similar then it will be about eight times as massive. Requiring eight times the oxygen and producing eight times the waste. A two inch fish does not have double the requirements of a one inch fish, it has eight times the requirements.

To use what should be an obvious example- using your "rule" a ten gallon tank could hold ten one inch long neon tetras or a single ten inch long oscar. Do you actually think that these are the same thing, that they require identical space and can be kept in the same size tank?

Then after the physical requirements are taken into consideration considerations such as territorial aggression, harem breeding and zone considerations should be adjusted for.
 
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jemjdragon

Member
Messages
240
Location
California, USA
As I said before I will not be using foreground plants because they would be torn away but I have seen baby tears attached to driftwood sold at my local fish store. Is this normal? Baby tears does not look like a plant that would attach easily to wood. As for the large plants, I'm thinking of placing them in terracota(sp) orchid pots and tying them down with fishing line to the base of the pot as well as putting large smooth rocks around the base of the plant to prevent the chiclids from pulling them up. If it doesn't work, then I might give up on having large background plants or try to think of something else.

I know that in the end I may have to shorten my list of fish to keep because of how aggressive thay can get and how big some become. I do not think I am willing to get oscars (though they are beautiful fish) because of how big one can get and how much waste they produce. Maybe if I get a bigger tank I might consider them. Also I heard Blue Jack Dempsies are slightly less aggressive than "regular" Jack Dempsies (I couldn't think of a better way to call them). I will look into the site you provided to read more about each fish.

As for water chemistery, I might need a bit of help. How much of the original tank water should I save to keep beneficial bacterial? I am planning on not washing the gravel but am thinking of mixing some pool sand into it so the chiclids have more sand in the tank. I have 2 large air pumps which I still plan on using. Would that produce enough oxygen along with the plants for the fish? Would the pumps produce enough carbon dioxide along with the fish for the plants? Do I need to do more or less water changes if my tank has plants (I do it once a week right now)? Should I add another tank filter to help keep the tank clean (I have like 2 extra just incase this one needs replacement)?

Since I do have an extra 10 gallon, I think that might be okay for a hospital, quarantine, or fry tank but if it is not, I'm willing to get a 20 or 30 gallon tank for this. And if i do get fry,should I move the parent fish with them, or just the fry? If I get fish that keep spawning and becoming more aggressive because of this, should I give them a tank of their own (I'm not sure if I can afford to keep a large tank only for 2 fish), separate them for a bit, or just trade them back to the store for for a new pair (which will hopefully not be male and female again but the same sex)?

Also my parents brought me some driftwood that they found camping. I'm guessing I need to boil it first but other than that, should I soak it to get rid of tannins? I will post pictures of them once they're cleaned up. I am still getting 1 more piece of drift wood for the tank and then I will need to get slate, rocks, coconut shells, and pool sand. Most likely will get pool sand first.

The tank looks so sad with only 3 fish (the Managua Cichlid died).
 

jemjdragon

Member
Messages
240
Location
California, USA
So I boiled the driftwood and found out that they float and made the water a dark red so I will have to soak it. If they continue to float what should I weigh it down with?
 

M_surinamensis

Shillelagh Law
Messages
1,165
As I said before I will not be using foreground plants because they would be torn away but I have seen baby tears attached to driftwood sold at my local fish store. Is this normal? Baby tears does not look like a plant that would attach easily to wood.

It's not really. I suppose you could wire it down until it roots- not actually that bad an idea considering the growth rate of the stuff. It would certainly tend to retard that overgrowth issue that frequently occurs when it is rooted in gravel and supplied with abundant nutrients. The plant might slowly die if not rooted... but there's a reason it's considered a dangerous invasive species when it shows up in the wild. It can be a pain in many aquariums simply because it will choke out other plants and requires frequent and heavy pruning... some species of it can survive and even thrive just fine when not rooted at all, so there's a pretty good chance that it will do just fine attached to driftwood provided the fish don't tear it up too badly.


As for the large plants, I'm thinking of placing them in terracota(sp) orchid pots and tying them down with fishing line to the base of the pot as well as putting large smooth rocks around the base of the plant to prevent the chiclids from pulling them up. If it doesn't work, then I might give up on having large background plants or try to think of something else.

If you really want plants and large cichlids- which is always kind of a crap shoot anyway, your absolute best move is to keep one of each species in the tank in order to cut down on the likelihood of breeding behaviors. The base of plants is an attractive spawning opportunity for many species- slate would be attractive to many others. There's a good chance of them simply uprooting whatever they want anyway but breeding behaviors of any kind pretty much guarantee it. Slate or no slate, fishing line or no fishing line. They'll hollow out underneath slate, dig out and then tip over pots and just break or tear plants that aren't where they want them.

As for water chemistery, I might need a bit of help. How much of the original tank water should I save to keep beneficial bacterial?

The gravel and filter media are a lot more important in that regard. Saving old water is more to combat shock effects if the new water is significantly different chemically.


I am planning on not washing the gravel but am thinking of mixing some pool sand into it so the chiclids have more sand in the tank.

Why?

You aren't going to be keeping any species in with what you have that would benefit from sand from a behavioral perspective. Any sand you add will not be coated the way your aquarium gravel (probably) is and will have a distinct impact on the water chemistry. Since you're looking mostly at south and central american species that ideally thrive in water that is softer and more acidic (although they are tough and sturdy) or someplace not too far above neutral- sand isn't a great idea.

If you were keeping rift lake dwarf species, sure... if you ever get shell brooders, you want sand everywhere. The species you named- unless you're using an extremely large grade gravel that is not good for the plants, you shouldn't be adding sand.

I have 2 large air pumps which I still plan on using. Would that produce enough oxygen along with the plants for the fish? Would the pumps produce enough carbon dioxide along with the fish for the plants?

Please see the oxygen exchange bit I wrote in my previous reply. It works for CO2 as well.

Do I need to do more or less water changes if my tank has plants (I do it once a week right now)?

While plants will technically reduce the need for them, with large cichlids and catfish they will pretty much be necessary regardless. There won't be- can't be- enough plants in that volume of water to create a completely self sustaining nitrogen cycle based on the mass of the adult fish.

Should I add another tank filter to help keep the tank clean (I have like 2 extra just incase this one needs replacement)?

That depends on your feeding schedule, how many fish you actually put in there and the size and quality of the filters being used.

And if i do get fry,should I move the parent fish with them, or just the fry?

There are benefits and detriments to both.

Although if you don't have someplace to house 50-300 more fish, you should probably just remove and destroy the eggs.

If I get fish that keep spawning and becoming more aggressive because of this, should I give them a tank of their own (I'm not sure if I can afford to keep a large tank only for 2 fish), separate them for a bit, or just trade them back to the store for for a new pair (which will hopefully not be male and female again but the same sex)?

You should sidestep most of those issues by only keeping one of each of the species you are interested in.

And you may be... a little... optimistic... when it comes to the likelihood of a store going out of their way to help you trade in a cichlid that has been in your home aquarium instead of their monitored environment or their supplier and in a fight for a new cichlid that hasn't. It would just be a terrible way to run a business and you won't find many that are willing to do it.

So I boiled the driftwood and found out that they float and made the water a dark red so I will have to soak it. If they continue to float what should I weigh it down with?

A galvanized or brass screw through a piece of slate or small sheet of acrylic with a hole through the center. Then bury that in your gravel.



Would you mind telling me the dimensions of your aquarium?

Also... you need to be careful as hell with those parrotfish. They're hybrids* and one of the results of their specific cross is a mouth that is seriously deformed. One of the two species used to create them is also not particularly aggressive, at least not on the scale of cichlids larger than six inches- they tend to get their ass kicked all over the tank when housed with actual full species, with their evolutionarily superior and fully functional mouthparts, properly proportioned bodies and intact instinctive responses.

Housed with something like an adult dempsy, unless it's a really... really large tank with a large number of fish to act as dithers and to spread out aggression from the dominant individuals, those parrotfish are basically dead meat.

*which I hate. If you really want to know why, I can explain it.
 

M_surinamensis

Shillelagh Law
Messages
1,165
I'm curious to hear it. :D

There's a few reasons. Some of which can be widely applied as a general negative about the practice and some of which are more a matter of taste.

From a personal perspective, hybrids just conflict with the reasons I keep the animals that I do. I am fascinated by individual animals but I am equally fascinated by all the ways that they are connected to their environment. The evolutionary adaptations they display in every facet of their existence. The behaviors, the way they select food and escape from predators, the patterns that help them avoid detection if they are inclined to hide or warn off other animals if they are not, the shapes, the sizes, the breeding strategies... what and why they are the way they are is just as appealing to me as everything else. So I keep them just because I selfishly want to get closer to that and to observe some slice of it on a regular basis. Hybrids have no place in that. Neither do color mutations, non-naturally occurring intergrades, enclosures that mix species from different areas of the world, covering or injecting animals with an artificial dye, genetically splicing zebra danios with anemone or venomoids.

From a genetic perspective, hybrids represent a distinct threat to non-hybrid populations of captive animals. Many hybrids are fertile with one another, back to both parent species and even with other species they have previously not been crossed with. This is especially true of a lot of ecothermic animals where there is not as much variability in chromosome count between semi-related populations. If you take a glass of water (a metaphor for the captive population) and add a drop of iodine (a metaphor for a cross with a different species), that glass of water will never be pure again. The captive populations of many species are already a subspecific/locale specific mess- LOADS of fish, boa constrictors, leopard geckos, green tree pythons, graybanded kingsnakes, some Pitouphis- there's some pretty strong evidence that most populations of bearded dragons outside of australia are subspecific crosses to some degree and I have even heard some arachnidology buffs suggest that some of the north american tarantula species (of which the taxonomy is already a mess) have been crossed in captivity. Lots of people who own a jurassic milksnake or a jungle corn or a creamcicle corn have no clue that the animal is a hybrid and will turn around and use it for their breeding projects. One only has to look around to see examples of pretty much indiscriminate breeding happening under the supervision of people who have no real clue what the impact of it will be. I like pure forms, for the reasons mentioned above, I'd like to have them available for sale twenty years from now and hybrids threaten that.

Finally there is the element of unpredictable and oftentimes undesirable results that some crosses result in. Taking species that have evolved to meet different environmental conditions or that exhibit different behaviors and crossing them together results in a confused mess of counterindicated results. Animal A has well developed heat sensitive labial pits that fit its arboreal inclinations. Animal B has no labial pits because it is a species that is inclined to dig or burrow. Cross them and you sometimes get an animal that keeps trying to dig and destroys its own face in the process. Or Animal X comes from a high humidity environment and requires moisture for proper respiratory function. Animal Y comes from an arid environment and has developed moisture retentive skin to combat dehydration and is prone to blister disease if it is exposed to too much moisture. Cross them and the animal has no healthy middle ground, no overlap in the conditions required by different organ systems within the same body. The same can potentially happen with nutritional requirements, the need for UV, ideal water conditions, temperature and any other facet of the necessary environment. All of which doesn't even begin to address the health complications that can arise from uneven rates of growth for individual body parts or the malformed and useless results that can arise due to conflicting genetic dictates for shape and function. The blood parrots are an example- they are a hybrid of a severum and a midas cichlid, the shape of the body and the shape of the jaw is not identical for these two species. The blood parrots have a mouth that is deformed and useless, often with limited or non-existent mobility, permanently open in a rigid rictus and leaving them unable to defend themselves from other fish and negatively affecting their ability to feed. The body is lumpy and stiff, the laterally flattened skeleton of the severum is covered in the musculature of the midas cichlid, where there is not sufficient space for it to form properly- they swim quite poorly as a result.

Hybrid vigor is largely a myth when it comes to pet species- most people misunderstand what the term actually means and just toss it out there to defend their ownership of a hybrid animal. These are not a working species (like a horse) or a food species (like hybrid plants that are created to make them more resistant to drought or hybrid pigs that are optimized for meat production) and they are not carefully controlled and regulated the way those hybrids are (hybrid food animals, for example, don't go anywhere near the general population under any circumstances until after extensive multi-generational analysis has been completed to verify that they meet the goals of their production). Hybridization as it occurs within the pet industry is dangerously unregulated, full of risks and potential for negative consequences and only carries the dubious benefit of making something that looks new and strange.

Given the amount of new and strange and brightly colored and interesting behaviors that already exist in naturally occurring species from around the world, many of them simply being ignored by the pet industry rather than worked with, I just don't see the point to it all. There are hundreds of species of bright orange fish with a chunky body. There's no reason to hybridize two beautiful species of cichlid to produce something that is literally deformed to the point where it has problems feeding itself when someone could just buy a clownfish and get pretty much all the same points of visual appeal, plus they won't end up having to hand-feed it pelleted food due to an inability to swallow.

Edit: Sorry of the above is a bit rambling... it's two AM where I am right now and I have been awake for awhile. My grasp of things like paragraphs and non-run on sentences is a bit tenuous at the moment.
 
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Tony C

Wayward Frogger
Messages
3,899
Location
Columbia, SC
Excellent explanation, as I expected. Coming from the frog hobby I have a general distaste for hybrids as well, for many of the same reasons. As a counter to the hybrid vigor argument, I suggest anyone who is interested read up on outbreeding depression. Effects can sometimes take two or more generations to become apparent, and by that time the hybrid animals are likely to have spread far and wide.

inbreeding vs. outbreeding depression
 

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