New AFT Owner, could use some help :)

Jason Boyd

New Member
Messages
17
Location
Kelowna, BC, Canada
Hi all. We are new African Fat Tailed Gecko owners, and could use some help in getting the temperatures just right. The AFT is about 5 inches (I need to verify with a ruler), and according to who I got it from is approx. 1 year old (?)

We have an Exo-Terra Medium Wide terrarium (24"x18"x18"). The tank has a Exo-Terra medium Heat Wave UTH in the hot zone. For fixtures we have Zoo Med Mini Combo Deep Dome and when setting up this tank this morning I put in a Exo-Terra 100w Infrared Basking Spot hoping that it would get the temptures to the right level (I had chosen the infrared for day time heating so that it didn't hurt the gecko's eyes, I guess I figured that bright white light might)

As I understand it, during the day the hot zone should be around 88F - 90F, and the cool zone around 75F - 77F. The infrared basking spot bulb only brought the temperatures to around 78F or so. I am using two Zoo Med digital terrarium thermometers to check the temperatures in each areas, and the probes are just about substrate level. I also have two strip thermometers on each side of the tank an inch or so about substrate levels to help verify the digital readings. Unfortunately, We do not have a infrared thermometer or pen thermometer to check with.

For night time we were planning on using a Exo-Terra 75w Night Heat Lamp, right now it is keeping the hot zone temp around 76F.

I guess I need help with getting the right bulbs for the terrarium to provide the right temps. Should I be using an Exo-Terra Intense Basking Spot instead? either 75w or 100w? or are there better bulbs I should be looking for?

The local stores here also carry the Zilla Day White Light Incandescent Spot Bulbs and the Zilla Night Black Heat Incandescent Spot Bulbs

Am I correct on what the daytime temps should be in each zone? Also, what are the temps I should be looking for in each zone during the night?

I have experience with Birds and Fish, but this is the first time our family has ventured into the world of Reptiles, so any help along the way will be greatly appreciated. I apologize if this is the wrong sub-forum to post this in.
 

acpart

Geck-cessories
Staff member
Messages
15,118
Location
Somerville, MA
Welcome to GF and the world of geckos. I have 6 fat tails and just got my first eggs of the season yesterday.

Ideally you wouldn't really need to use lights at all with the fat tails, since they're nocturnal, and could heat entirely with the under tank heater (UTH). What are you using for substrate? The hot side (we're talking about the floor, not the air) should be in the high 80's to low 90's, so you have that right. I'm surprised the UTH isn't heating up to the correct temp level, assuming you're really mesuring floor temps on the hot side. You can always tape some aluminum foil to the UTH so the UTH is sandwiched between the aluminum foil and the glass cage bottom. That helps to direct more of the heat upwards to the floor of the tank.

Looking forward to seeing pictures of your fat tail.

Aliza
 

Jason Boyd

New Member
Messages
17
Location
Kelowna, BC, Canada
For substrate I am using vita-sand in most of the tank, and eco-earth in approx 1/3rd of the tank in the cool side. Both are about 1 inch thick. I know there are many discussions/debates on substrates, I chose sand and tried to choose a sand that I felt would be a good sand after reading about the various brands of sand. Is the 1 inch too thick? I can always take some of it out if it is. I was also worried about if there wasn't a thick enough layer that the gecko's belly might get burned.

I have the temperature probe out of the substrate, just above in the air. Should I lay it in the top layer of sand instead? As I mentioned, I don't have a temp gun to check the surface temp accurately. My plan was to use the UTH on all the time, with the lights on a rheostat just to supplement the heat and achieve the right ranges inside the tank. There can be quite a lot of temperature fluctuations here where I live, it also gets fairly cold during the winter up here.

The way I understood it, after talking with employees at various pet stores in the area, and reading AFT caresheets, was that the UTH would provide a good baseline temp for evenings, and that a bulb would help bring that temp up towards 90F during the day. Is this way off? so much information out there that doesn't always exactly match up to other information out there.
 
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Kylerbassman

New Member
Messages
332
Location
PA
First off, I would really recommend/stress to get the vita sand out of there. That stuff is bad news. Try getting tile instead or for now use paper towels. You may not be reaching temps because sand is an insulator. It will let some heat up, but not much. You have a greater risk of compaction with loose substrate so for young geckos I always say go with paper towels. Also AFT need a but more moisture so sand would be harder to keep moist, and if it is vita sand with added calcium and so on, getting that stuff wet is a death trap for your AFT.

The only way to get true temps is by getting a good infrared thermometer or heat temp gun. The digital probe thermometer is almost 10 degrees off compared to true floor temp in my setup. I only use probe as a guide to make sure heat is consistent.

If you fill out health questionnaire so we know what your implementing in your tank, we can give you more suggestions to help you make sure you are good to go.

Welcome to the forum and feel free to ask questions.
 

Kylerbassman

New Member
Messages
332
Location
PA
Oh, and one other thing. I have a 20 gallon long with a 20 gallon Uth. I use slate for the entire tank with just a bit of sand underneath around edges to level the tiles. I only use a 25w day bulb and a 15-25 blue night bulb in my setups. 50w or more just seems like a lot to me in a setup that big if your using a Uth also.
 

Jason Boyd

New Member
Messages
17
Location
Kelowna, BC, Canada
I moved the probes. The hot zone probe is settled just slightly into the sand above the center-ish of the UTH. I did the same with the cold zone probe, just slightly into the eco-earth, but between the two hides on that side of the tank. The hot zone probe now reads 96F :O, I turned off the heat lamp hope that it would bring that down to 90F. If the Heat Mat is putting off too much heat what can I do to bring it down? should I search for a rheostat to control the UTH?

Also, the cold zone temp is 64F, that seems like quite a big gap, how do I warm the cool side up without over heating the hot side?

About the sand, I wasn't planning on getting it wet, that is why there is eco-earth in 1/3rd of the tank, that it can be misted. Why would wet vita-sand be a death trap? from what I had been reading the calcium sand was a better sand than most.
 

Kylerbassman

New Member
Messages
332
Location
PA
Calcium sand will clump when wet. If your gecko decides to ingest it because of the nutrients, it may ingest enough to become impacted. Sand is an insulator and maybe robbing you of uth heat. It is sad as many books and pet stores will say its ok, when really its a very large risk to take. Sand is also a pain to clean as it can be very hard to get all fecals, urates, and dead feeders. I was also given bad information an housed my first female on it for about a month until I read into it and found how bad it can be. In there habitat they are usually found in rocks and crevices. I'm sure they come into contact with loose substrate, but not as much as you may think.

The only way to get accurate temps is to use an infrared thermometer or temp/heat gun. 96 on the hot side doesn't scare me if it is an accurate reading. It's all about gradient so that you can give your gecko a range for him to thermoregulate. 60's is a bit cold on the cool side. What is your room temp? I would think even with room temp being in the 60's the ambient temp would be slightly more because of the Uth and lights. I keep mine from 95 ish hot side to 72 ish cool side.

Don't take this as me busting on you, as I'm honestly just trying to help you out with getting everything in place to be successful. If you fill out the health questionnaire we can help you out with other things you may be having issues with. Good luck, and if you have any questions, feel free to ask.
 

Jason Boyd

New Member
Messages
17
Location
Kelowna, BC, Canada
After a few hours the probe in the sand in the hot zone was reading 89F, I have put a 50w Day White Heat bulb just to try and heat the ambient air up, hoping that might also heat the cold side up a bit, while not heating the surface in the hot zone. I think I am just going to have to play around with everything until I find the right combination. Unfortunately none of the stores here have the thermostat in stock, so I will have to wait until I can put one on the UTH.

The gecko will be a birthday present for my son, who will help in the care and maintenance while learning about reptiles. We had originally looked at reptile carpet, but could not find any that would fit the depth of the tank (18"). Also, the temp at the bottom of the substrate is at 100F, without a thermostat I would be worried that a carpet, or tile substrate would cause the surface temp to be too high. For now the sand will have to stay until we do a substrate change on the tank. Would all eco-earth be a better choice? I don't plan on getting the sand wet, the eco earth in the tank is in there to be misted.

Room temp is around 70F. I will keep reporting any temp changes as I try different combinations.

Where is the health questionnaire?
 

Jason Boyd

New Member
Messages
17
Location
Kelowna, BC, Canada
Just wanted to update. The 50w day white light heat bulb took the surface temp to 95F in the hot zone. I am very confused as to how to properly heat the terrarium and create a good gradient, regardless of substrate. I think the only thing left is to try a rheostat or thermostat on the UTH and dial it down so that I can use a bulb to heat the ambient air, bringing the surface temp up in both the hot and cold zones, or not use the UTH at all and just bulbs. As I understand it though, AFT's are belly warmers so the UTH is better than lights? I was hoping the solution to heating would have been simpler though.
 

Kylerbassman

New Member
Messages
332
Location
PA
Uth is better. I would definitely use that over the light for heating. It is best to get a thermostat if you are having large fluctuations as you have stated. I really would still advise getting rid of that sand. It's just a very real danger. If you don't, at least make sure your not feeding on it. Best wishes to you and your new addition.
 

acpart

Geck-cessories
Staff member
Messages
15,118
Location
Somerville, MA
I replied on the other forum you posted on as well. Here is some more information about my set-up in case that's helpful:
My AFT's are in a 20 gallon enclosure using eco earth throughout the tank as a substrate. The tank is planted, so part of the tank has a drainage layer of expanded clay balls and vinyl mesh. I have a UTH and use ceramic hides that are partially buried in the substrate. I make the hides myself and have made them with ceramic bottoms so the geckos won't burrow into the substrate and burn themselves. I also could have put a 12"x12" tile under the substrate on the hot side, which I"m going to do since I'm replacing their current hides. I use a thermostat with a probe directly on the substrate. They've been housed like this for 4 years and everyone is doing fine.

Aliza
 

Jason Boyd

New Member
Messages
17
Location
Kelowna, BC, Canada
Uth is better. I would definitely use that over the light for heating. It is best to get a thermostat if you are having large fluctuations as you have stated. I really would still advise getting rid of that sand. It's just a very real danger. If you don't, at least make sure your not feeding on it. Best wishes to you and your new addition.

If I changed the substrate to tile, is slate the best to use? or could I use ceramic or porcelain with a natural stone look? Also, what should I use underneath the tile and in the cracks between tiles?


Aliza, do you do anything with the eco-earth, or do you just put it in right out of the bag dry? Also, how well does it conduct the heat? I like the idea with the tile for the hot side. I don't have a drainage level so would just eco-earth underneath the tile suffice?
 

Kylerbassman

New Member
Messages
332
Location
PA
I would just remove most of the sand and use it only to keep the tiles even maybe leave about 1/4" layer. Then, you can use regular sand or Eco earth to fill in joints and edges. You could probably use the Eco earth instead to fill in cracks if you don't want to have to get more sand. I just would try to keep the vita sand away from your gecko. Since you have an AFT I would keep the cool side as Eco earth so you can moisten the top layer to keep some of the humidity in the tank.
 

Kylerbassman

New Member
Messages
332
Location
PA
Natural tile is better at transferring heat. Ceramic and fake stone may be a little harder to transfer the heat. Although considering how hot your warm side is getting, ceramic might not be a bad option for you. It's a little trial and error and each setup has its own needs. I used slate because I was trying to get the most out of my Uth so I wouldn't have to do much lighting. Also, if your cool side is really cold, you could put a mini Uth long ways outside of the hides closer to the warm side to get a little better of a gradient, but as I said, make sure your getting correct temps before spending more money. I noticed when the probes are in the sand, they tend to not be accurate floor readings. Mine hit close to 100 on my probe until I got my infrared thermometer and realized I was really only at 95 on my surface. I took the probe out and put it on the surface and it say 85, checked with my infrared and I was still at 95, which is why I'm saying it's pretty important so you aren't wasting your money on things you don't need. In that size tank, I'm really surprised at the gradient range you are getting. Good luck.
 

acpart

Geck-cessories
Staff member
Messages
15,118
Location
Somerville, MA
I use ceramic tile with my leopard geckos, right on the floor of the tank. In general I find that a ZooMed UTH rated for 10-20 gallons, with a ceramic tile substrate, keeps the temps in the low 90's without a thermostat.
When I use the eco-earth, I get the big bricks and hydrate them, then use the "dirt". I mist the AFT cages every morning, so it stays moist. I have one enclosure of leopard geckos on a mixture of eco-earth (mostly), a bit of desert sand and leaf litter. I only mist them about every month and I find that the substrate is dry but not dusty.

Aliza
 

Jason Boyd

New Member
Messages
17
Location
Kelowna, BC, Canada
We went out to Home Depot today and picked up some 6x6 slate tiles and a box of 3x6. I think we will just pull out all of the vita-sand and return it. Instead of buying washed playsand, I was thinking of just using eco earth as the sub layer to even out the tiles and then only use the tiles to fill 2/3rds of the tank, keeping the eco earth in the cool side. I don't want to silicone them together so eco earth will fill the cracks too. I picked up a cheap plug in lamp dimmer switch to use with the UTH until I can get a Rheostat or good Thermostat (I was thinking Zoo Med or Hydrofarm). I also returned the combo light fixture and picked up two fluker's 5.5" fixtures with dimmer switches built in to the cord.

With eco-earth, how often should I be removing it from the tank and replacing it with fresh eco-earth? I assume that with the misting and humidity that it would need to be removed to keep the tank free of bacteria growth and whatnot.

Also, I really appreciate everyone's help to get me on the right track with the husbandry, and everyone's patience as well.
 

Kylerbassman

New Member
Messages
332
Location
PA
Here is that health questionnaire. I hope it's all here. It's in the health section of the forum. I'm on taptalk and I'm not sure how to link to it.


If you could please take a moment to fill out this small questionnaire, it'll help us better understand the history of your leo without being there to see him/her. This will help our members be able to help you in a much easier way.





About your leo:

- Sex

- Age & Weight

- How long have you owned your leo

- Where was he/she obtained (ex. Pet store, breeder, wild caught, friend)



A) Health/History

- How often do you handle your leo

- Is your leo acting any different today? If so how does he/she normally act which differs from now.

- Has he/she had any problems in the past, if so please describe.

B) Fecals

- Describe (look any different than normal)

- When was the last time he/she went

C) Problem

- Please briefly describe the problem and how long it has been going on



Housing:

A) Enclosure

- Size

- Type (ex. glass tank)

- Type of substrate

- Hides, how many, what kind

B) Heating

- Heat source

- Cage temps (hot side, cool side)

- Method of regulating heat source

- What are you using to measure your temps

- Do you have any lights (describe)

C) Cage mates

- How many (males, females)

- Describe health, or previous problems



Describe Diet:

A) Typical diet

- What you're feeding (how often, how much)

- How are you feeding (hand fed, left in dish, ect)

B) Supplements (describe how often)

- What vitamin/minerals are you using (list brands)

- What are you gut loading food with
 

Jason Boyd

New Member
Messages
17
Location
Kelowna, BC, Canada
About your AFT:

- Sex : Unknown

- Age & Weight : Unknown

- How long have you owned your AFT: 3 days.

- Where was he/she obtained : Pet store

A) Health/History

- How often do you handle your AFT : Have not handled him yet

- Is your AFT acting any different today? If so how does he/she normally act which differs from now. : He/she is moving more around the cage today, it looks like he/she shed a bit today, found some loose skin laying atop the substrate, he/she also appears brighter than before (he was kind of grey looking)

- Has he/she had any problems in the past, if so please describe : Unsure, just bought him/her

B) Fecals

- Describe (look any different than normal) : Do not have any differences to note

- When was the last time he/she went : unsure

C) Problem

- Please briefly describe the problem and how long it has been going on : N/A



Housing:

A) Enclosure

- Size : 24"x18"12"

- Type : Exo-Terra Medium Wide Terrarium, glass with screen roof

- Type of substrate : 2/3rds Vita-Sand, 1/3rd Eco-Earth

- Hides, how many, what kind : 4, 1 medium exo-terra reptile hide, 1 small exo-terra reptile hide, 1 exo-terra primate skull, 1 exo-terra buffalo skull

B) Heating

- Heat source : UTH and night glo bulb

- Cage temps : Surface temps, hot side 90F, cold side 74F

- Method of regulating heat source: none as of yet

- What are you using to measure your temps : Zoo-Med digital thermometer

- Do you have any lights (describe) : 1 right now, an exo-terra night glo bulb

C) Cage mates

- How many (males, females) : none

- Describe health, or previous problems : N/A



Describe Diet:

A) Typical diet

- What you're feeding (how often, how much) : small crickets, 3 or 4 each night, removing them in the morning, judging how much he needs to eat right now

- How are you feeding (hand fed, left in dish, ect) : left in cage over night

B) Supplements (describe how often) :

- What vitamin/minerals are you using (list brands : Exo-Terra Calcium+D3, Herptivite multivitams, 50/50 mix dusting crickets. dusted each night so far because he hasn't been eating since he was put in the terrarium. Was fed the night before was brought home at pet store though

- What are you gut loading food with. Flukers calcium fortified cricket quencher, flukers high calcium cricket feed
 

Jason Boyd

New Member
Messages
17
Location
Kelowna, BC, Canada
I should probably add that I found a fecal dropping this morning while cleaning/tidying the terrarium: tip was white, middle was dark brown, end was browny orange(?)
 
Last edited:

acpart

Geck-cessories
Staff member
Messages
15,118
Location
Somerville, MA
Fecal sounds fine; the white is urates. My planted vivs with eco earth are their own eco-system. I never change out the eco earth. The little bugs in the soil (I bought isopods) eat the poop and fertilize the plants. Everyone is healthy and happy.

Aliza
 

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