Seller disclosing poss hets

Should breeders name all poss hets, no matter how small?

  • YES!

    Votes: 114 86.4%
  • I've gotten 100% hets without being told of poss.

    Votes: 7 5.3%
  • NO!

    Votes: 11 8.3%

  • Total voters
    132

BalloonzForU

New Member
Messages
7,585
Location
Grand Blanc, MI
Hypothetical Example yet true:

Someone gets a leo not proven but poss het let's say Tremper, but it's a very nice SHTCTB and they want to make Bell Hybinos. So they breed the SHTCTB (before proving or disproving it is het Tremper) to a Bell. Now I personally would want to know the poss of the offspring being het Tremper.

This issue has come up before with a breeder adding Trempers to their Bell line.

Now this could happen with any recessive trait and at times I'm sure the odds of a leo are too small that a breeder might not even mention it. However how small the percentage is, the animal could still be 100% het if parents were never disproved, which can take time to do. Personally the thought of this scares the crap out of me, when you think how much this could screw up any of our projects if the recessive trait pops out unexpectedly.
 

Grinning Geckos

Tegan onboard.
Messages
2,521
Location
Chicago-land
I'm not sure how I want to vote now. I agree that possible hets should be disclosed, but I think there must be some sort of stopping point where you're considered "safe".
 

Jeanne

Abbie's Human
Messages
4,090
Location
Tyngsboro, MA
I voted Yes, the seller, if they are aware of a possibility of a gecko being a het, should let the buyer know.

I am doing a breeding with a Gecko that is 66% Possible Het Tremper. I do plan on breeding him to a Female Tremper to prove him out, if he does prove to be Het Tremper (I will be highly bummed) I will let anyone who buys his babies and his grand babies know that they are possible hets. GOD I hope he's not a Het Tremper!!!!!


BUT, I can see what Shanti is saying. If you breed a Het "Something" to another Morph, then breed the babies together, etc etc. There has to come a time when you just stop saying "Hey, by the way, this gecko has a .000000066% chance of being a Het "Something"
 

BalloonzForU

New Member
Messages
7,585
Location
Grand Blanc, MI
Even if the odds are small I would still like to know and be able to make the choice, do I want that trait popping up in my project. Personally if I know the odds are that low, I may still use it in my planned project. Just knowing what the breeder knows is nice to know. I'm a little anal about my records so maybe this doesn't seem reasonable info to know.
 

BalloonzForU

New Member
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7,585
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Grand Blanc, MI
Jeanne said:
BUT, I can see what Shanti is saying. If you breed a Het "Something" to another Morph, then breed the babies together, etc etc. There has to come a time when you just stop saying "Hey, by the way, this gecko has a .000000066% chance of being a Het "Something"

I'm not saying the breeder needs to say the %, just that many generations ago there was a Tremper Albino bred in. I think something that simple is enough. I've made it a habit lately of asking if there are any other poss hets no matter how small the odds. I don't need to know the actual odds. Also I would NOT hold a breeder responsible to disclose something he or she had no idea existed in their line.
 
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Grinning Geckos

Tegan onboard.
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2,521
Location
Chicago-land
Ok, I voted yes purely on a personal basis. My logic is this...I will only buy 100% hets from other breeders (maybe 66% if it's a really awesome gecko), and I will only produce 100% and 66% hets from my breedings. For my own sanity, I wouldn't go into producing 50%, or 25% (and so on...). So, for me, disclosing hets is a no-brainer.

For other breeders that I would be buying from, I would like to know if something miscellaneous had entered the line - like the Tremper and Bell example. Thankfully, everyone I've dealt with, and would deal with, are the type of people to keep track of that sort of thing and are aware of how crossing lines can "mess" things up.
 

Jeanne

Abbie's Human
Messages
4,090
Location
Tyngsboro, MA
Grinning Geckos said:
Thankfully, everyone I've dealt with, and would deal with, are the type of people to keep track of that sort of thing and are aware of how crossing lines can "mess" things up.
Right On!
 

Ian S.

Active Member
Messages
1,924
Location
MA
Well as all of you can guess, I voted "yes" since the bell x Tremper is an exact example of what I have been dealing with over the last two and a half years or so. In my opinion It falls nothing short of "bad ethical judgement" not to tell your customers of the possibility that a particular strain of albinism could be a poss. het for another strain of amelanism. Whats the problem you ask?? Well I'm currently feeding about 45 babies and 20 juvies and adutls from the project, while I test breed.
However, on another note, I don't really find it a big deal when you breed up a couple of bell hybinos and hatch a striped bell. LMAO!!
 
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BalloonzForU

New Member
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7,585
Location
Grand Blanc, MI
I don't think anyone would complain about a stripe bell popping out of the mix. ;)


I've got a Bell from the same breeder as you, Ian, that's one of the reasons I brought this up.
 
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LeosForLess

New Member
Messages
1,305
I think yes because look how long it took Pat Kline to figure out it was a bliz super snow, and i dont think hes even proven it yet.
When i breed my mack het tremper to my DH rainwater blazing(normal het for bliz and RW) i will sell the babies as "Mack 50% het tremper 50% het rw 50% het blizzard" just so if sombody breeds it to an albino, or blizzard they know what they may possibly hatch.
 

PaulSage

I'm baaaaaack!
Messages
2,590
Location
Texas
Especially when in reference to the albino traits, I would like to see anything 25% or more "poss het" labeled. IMO, it's important, although to a lesser degree, for the blizzard and patternless traits as well since those can sometimes be a little difficult to distinguish. Even if it looks funny to label a gecko as "25% poss het Tremper" I think it's important as information, not necessarily as a selling point.
 

snared99

Luxurious Leopards
Messages
1,485
Location
PA
I think you should tell people leos are possible het for something, but not market for that. In other words I do not believe in marking a leo is poss het, but will tell the purchaser the complete history before purchasing so they are buying the leo not only because of the poss het. I think being pleasently surprised is better then changin breeding plans and then possibly getting a poss het to end up being not het for anything.
So I beleive the consumer should know the lineage of the gecko but from a marketing stand point I dont agree with "uping" the price if a leo only has a possibility of being het for something.
 

BalloonzForU

New Member
Messages
7,585
Location
Grand Blanc, MI
Exactly! If I see a very nice SHTCTB that I would like to pair with a Bell, I would like to know if there is a chance (no matter how small, especially if parents, grandparents, etc were not disproved) that he/she may be het Tremper or Rainwater. This would actually stop me from buying him/her.
 
O

okapi

Guest
Im assuming your talking about the breeder that wanted tangerine bells so they bred a tangerine tremper to a bell and bred those double het bell/tremper offspring to another bell and then started breeding those togeather. When I was reading on their site I was like ":main_no: bad idea!" I would hope that they can tell the difference between bells and trempers by looking at the hue of the browns in the pattern, but still, there is that chance that a tremper would be produced and who knows how many of their bells are also het tremper. Wouldnt it of been easier for them to breed a nonalbino tangerine to their bells to start that line? Thats the path that I would of chosen. And I think most people would agree with me.

Another thing thats crossed my mind is the fact that people are going to want to produce red eyed geckos using the eclipse gene and a different albino gene than tremper. It has been too soon since the first Raptor was outbred so almost all eclipses out there would be 100% or 66% or 50% het tremper. 50% at the very least. And the fastest way to produce a bell or LV "raptor" would be to breed an eclipse to a bell or LV and then breed the double het bell or LV albino and eclipse offspring back to eachother. The chances are low but there still could be some tremper "raptors" poping out. And with all the color from the R/aptor project it would be near impossible to know just by looking at the gecko with red eyes if it is a tremper, bell, or LV albino. And to prove it out would require ALOT of test breeding to both the tremper albinos AND the other albino gene. And if breeding to both strains produces more albinos of each type, how would one know if it is a tremper "raptor" het bell/LV or a Bell/LV "raptor" het tremper? That is frighting to think about. Confusion would result. Plus what about all the offspring from the test breeings? Either way they would have a chance of being het for the other albino gene, so the market would be flooded with bells/LV albinos het tremper, and Trempers het for bell or LV. The only way that one could "safely" make "raptors" using the eclipse gene paired with a non-tremper albino strain would be to strictly outbreed the eclipse gene to normals, then breed the het eclipses togeather, then breed their eclipse babies to normals, then inbreed again, then outbreed again. Then breed those hets togeather again to get more eclipses. Then with that generation of Eclipses, test breed to trempers to try and remove all the Eclipses het tremper from that particular breeding gene pool and then outbreed into the bell or LV lines. But I feel that it is safe to assume that most people will not wait for that many generations before they try for their goal.... What are your thoughts everyone?
 
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