Venemoid snakes?

[Baoh]

http://wildlifeworld.info/blog/?cat=3

darn.... that was hard.... first thing that popped up along with several houndred other hits. "venom is needed by the snakes, as it aids in digestion."

Thanks for providing that. Now, please answer the question I posed to you in the last paragraph of post #28 in this thread, as that is what what would be most important with respect to this issue, as the quality of life impact depends upon it.

 

[Baoh]

Oh, wait.

Real science.

Shucks.

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J Exp Zool Part A Ecol Genet Physiol. 2007 Oct 1;307(10):568-77.Click here to read Links
Prey envenomation does not improve digestive performance in western diamondback rattlesnakes (Crotalus atrox).
McCue MD.

Department of Biological Sciences, University of Arkansas, Fayetteville, Arkansas 72701, USA. [email protected]

Although the toxic properties of snake venoms have been recognized throughout history, very little is known about the adaptive significance of these powerful mixtures. This study examined the popular hypothesis that prey envenomation enhances digestion by influencing the energetic costs of digestion and assimilation, gut passage time, and apparent assimilation efficiency (ASSIM) in western diamondback rattlesnakes (Crotalus atrox), a species whose venom is recognized for its comparatively high proteolytic activities. A complete randomized block design allowed repeated measures of specific dynamic action and gut passage time to be measured in eight snakes ingesting four feeding treatments (i.e., artificially envenomated live mice, artificially envenomated prekilled mice, saline injected live mice, and saline injected prekilled mice). A second experiment measured ASSIM in eight snakes ingesting a series of six artificially envenomated or six saline injected mice meals over an 8-week period. Contrary to expectations, the results of both these experiments revealed that envenomation had no significant influence on any of the measured digestive performance variables. Gut passage time averaged 6 days and ASSIM averaged 79.1%. Twenty-one hours following ingestion, postprandial metabolic rates exhibited factorial increases that averaged 3.9-fold greater than resting metabolic rate. Specific dynamic action lasted on average 88 hr and accounted for 26% of the total ingested energy. The results of this study reinforce the need to systematically examine the potential adaptive advantages that venoms confer on the snakes that produce them.

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Comp Biochem Physiol A Mol Integr Physiol. 2009 Apr;152(4):579-85.Links
Prey envenomation does not improve digestive performance in Taiwanese pit vipers (Trimeresurus gracilis and T. stejnegeri stejnegeri).
Chu CW, Tsai TS, Tsai IH, Lin YS, Tu MC.

Department of Life Science, National Taiwan University, Taipei, Taiwan.

It has been a common belief that snake venom may help in the digestion of its prey, although direct examples and supporting evidence have not been sufficient. To address this, the present study examined whether preinjecting natural amounts of pit viper venom into experimental mice may accelerate their digestion by the snakes or gain energy benefit as compared to the control without the envenomation. Live adults of two Asian pit viper species Trimeresurus gracilis and T. stejnegeri stejnegeri, which inhabit the cold and warm environment respectively, were the subjects studied herein. A natural dose of 1.2 mg of each of the pit viper venom in phosphate-buffered saline (PBS) was injected into the mouse (about 10% of the snake mass) before it was being fed to the same species of vipers, while the pit vipers in control group were given mouse injected with sterile PBS. The snakes were kept at 14 degrees C or 24 degrees C, and parameters of gut passage time, costs of digestion, and/or digestive efficiency were measured. The results did not support the hypotheses that envenomation facilitates prey digestion. The venom in fact caused longer first defecation time and lower assimilation energy at 14 degrees C. Besides, the time to reach the oxygen consumption peak, and the first defecation time of T. s. stejnegeri were longer than that of T. gracilis.







I guess we have our answer in at least a few species, then.

 

[Baoh]

I can provide the full texts next week for anyone that might want them.

 

[Sunrise Reptile]

It tells her they're better than your literacy.

Why don't the two of you hook up, and live happily ever after in illiterate, ignorant bliss? You truly deserve each other. :main_thumbsup:

 

[Baoh]

Why don't the two of you hook up, and live happily ever after in illiterate, ignorant bliss? You truly deserve each other. :main_thumbsup:

I take this to mean you are incapable of addressing or unwilling to address the issue directly in the face of legitimate evidence.

 

[JordanAng420]

Alright, alright, enough already.
Thank you for everyones opinions. I wanted to address this issue as adults with different opinions. I've had a hell of a week, and i'm in no mood for anyone who is participating in this thread simply to argue. If the tone continues as such, I will request this thread be moved somewhere more appropriate for arguing...which certainly was NOT my original intention.

Your opinions are important to me because they relate to my career. Every day, I am forced to perform procedures such as the venemoid surgery. (de-barking in dogs being another) If a client comes in and requests a procedure done, as long as my boss approves it, it is my duty as a veterinary nurse to assist him whenever he needs me. This requires me to swallow my pride, and put my morals and ethical beliefs aside. I guess I just wanted some "real life" opinions on the subject since the "reality" of it is rarely, if ever, discussed. Didn't mean to cause a stir up.

 

[Baoh]

Alright, alright, enough already.
Thank you for everyones opinions. I wanted to address this issue as adults with different opinions. I've had a hell of a week, and i'm in no mood for anyone who is participating in this thread simply to argue. If the tone continues as such, I will request this thread be moved somewhere more appropriate for arguing...which certainly was NOT my original intention.

Your opinions are important to me because they relate to my career. Every day, I am forced to perform procedures such as the venemoid surgery. (de-barking in dogs being another) If a client comes in and requests a procedure done, as long as my boss approves it, it is my duty as a veterinary nurse to assist him whenever he needs me. This requires me to swallow my pride, and put my morals and ethical beliefs aside. I guess I just wanted some "real life" opinions on the subject since the "reality" of it is rarely, if ever, discussed. Didn't mean to cause a stir up.

Again, that is not being forced. Pressured, but not forced. Otherwise, I completely understand your discomfort with the matter of performing these procedures.

 

[JordanAng420]

You could look at it that way. It is true in a sense...it's not totally being forced. But, if I want to continue to uphold my job as a veterinary technician, it is a duty that I must obey to comply with my specialty in anesthesia.

 

[Baoh]

You could look at it that way. It is true in a sense...it's not totally being forced. But, if I want to continue to uphold my job as a veterinary technician, it is a duty that I must obey to comply with my specialty in anesthesia.

Exactly, and I don't envy the burden you are taking on.

 

[RocksMama77]

I have read all of your replies and for me personally it comes down to one thing. Not that it is very intellectual and I can't back it up with proof or science. I treat my animals the way I would want to be treated. Before I do anything to or for my animals I ask myself if I was a ... would I want this done. I can honestly say that if I was a venomous snake there is no way I would want my fangs or venom taken away especially so some idiot can handle me without threat of getting bitten. I personally would never keep a venomous snake but I have a daughter and don't have the expertise. For someone to choose to keep one is completely their choice but I think it is incredibly wrong to mutilate an animal for any reason. Also what is the point of having a venomous snake if it is no longer venomous. Get a python for goodness sakes.

 

[nevinm]

well said

 

[JordanAng420]

I have read all of your replies and for me personally it comes down to one thing. Not that it is very intellectual and I can't back it up with proof or science. I treat my animals the way I would want to be treated. Before I do anything to or for my animals I ask myself if I was a ... would I want this done. I can honestly say that if I was a venomous snake there is no way I would want my fangs or venom taken away especially so some idiot can handle me without threat of getting bitten. I personally would never keep a venomous snake but I have a daughter and don't have the expertise. For someone to choose to keep one is completely their choice but I think it is incredibly wrong to mutilate an animal for any reason. Also what is the point of having a venomous snake if it is no longer venomous. Get a python for goodness sakes.

Thanks for your thoughts. Just for the record, I was never interested in this snake, or any hots for that matter...I just wanted to know where everyone stood as far as the ethical part.

Again, I thank everyone.

 

[Alusdra]

I hadn't heard of this surgery until I read this poll/thread. But having had it explained, I don't agree with this procedure.

I feel that ANY surgery where the sole purpose is to make the animal easier to live with is wrong. Bebarking and declawing as examples in the more common pets. I am glad that these are illegal in some states and in the EU. I would even possibly put clipping parrot wings as in this group, though that is reversible (assuming they are not pinioned), and de-scenting a ferret is possibly ok, as they tend to do that at the same time as the spay/neuter (where the spay is actually a life-saving procedure).

Any surgery is painful and has risk associated with it; risks which are unacceptable when they are not going to result in better quality of life for the animal. In this case particularly, where I do not agree with venomous anything are being suitable 'pets', this idea is abhorrent.

And Maia- I would have a discussion with your boss. A work environment where you are forced to participate in things that you feel are morally wrong is unhealthy. There are plenty of vets out there that are against cosmetic procedures and refuse to perform them. You could either work with them or talk to the vet(s) at your current practice about the issue. Perhaps they will be relieved that someone else feels the same way and will stop doing such procedures entirely. At the least, allow you to not participate.

 

[Barbel]

I feel that ANY surgery where the sole purpose is to make the animal easier to live with is wrong. Bebarking and declawing as examples in the more common pets.

AGREED!! I have a cat who was declawed by her previous owner and I just feel so bad for her sometimes. If she were to ever get out she would have NO WAY of defending herself. She even still scratches the scratching post . I invested the time to teach my other cat that the only place to scratch is the post. It took a little while, but she figured it out!
If you aren't willing to live with an animal the way it is, then you shouldn't have the animal at all. From what I have read, most people that seek out venemoid snakes are new to venomous reptiles and true venomous keepers, or purists as they were called in the articles I read, look down on this procedure. Instead of mutilating the snake to ease YOUR fear, invest the time to learn how to properly handle the snake. You know the risks, if you can't handle them, then admire from a distance. We might as well start feeding sedatives to large constrictors so they can't strangle their owners. You know, just enough so they can swallow a dead rat, but still can't hurt their keeper.
I have also seen pictures of the surgery and it looks awful! They not only cut inside the mouth on both sides, which is what I figured, but they also cut open the outside of the face on both sides. How painful do you think that is? The list of side effects was also very long which of course included death.
To me a person that owns a venemoid snake is like that guy that wears a Harley Davidson T-Shirt, bandanna, and leather jacket, but is too scared to get on the bike. He sure seems like a tough guy until you see him driving away in his Ford Focus.

 

[Gary Orner]

Snakes that have had the surgery have become venomous again. The gland can not regrow. BUT AND THERE IS A BUT!!!! The gland can repair itself if any AND I MEAN ANY gland is left behind.

This is the unloaded gun of the hobby. I ask you how many deaths are from unloaded guns? You know what I mean too. Bobby shoots Tommy but says I thought it was unloaded sorry................

 

[Sunrise Reptile]

Thanks for your thoughts. Just for the record, I was never interested in this snake, or any hots for that matter...I just wanted to know where everyone stood as far as the ethical part.

Again, I thank everyone.

And nobody is faulting you, Maia! It's a legitimate question. I'm completely against removing any part of a reptiles anatomy, for whatever reason. It's been a heated topic for years, yet nobody (and I, least of all) faults you for bringing up the discussion. It's a topic we need to talk about! :main_yes:

 

[Sunrise Reptile]

Snakes that have had the surgery have become venomous again. The gland can not regrow. BUT AND THERE IS A BUT!!!! The gland can repair itself if any AND I MEAN ANY gland is left behind.

This is the unloaded gun of the hobby. I ask you how many deaths are from unloaded guns? You know what I mean too. Bobby shoots Tommy but says I thought it was unloaded sorry................

Gary, thanks for your professional viewpoint! I very much value your take on this subject! :main_thumbsup:

 

[JordanAng420]

Snakes that have had the surgery have become venomous again. The gland can not regrow. BUT AND THERE IS A BUT!!!! The gland can repair itself if any AND I MEAN ANY gland is left behind.

This is the unloaded gun of the hobby. I ask you how many deaths are from unloaded guns? You know what I mean too. Bobby shoots Tommy but says I thought it was unloaded sorry................

I knew I heard something like that, I thought I was going nuts! I guess it's the same idea as in cats; they can still go into heat if even a microscopic portion of the ovaries is left...Thank you, Gary.

Scary to think about all those "unloaded" guns.

Alusdra: At work, I am not comfortable with a lot of the other employees handling some of the animals that I do. Most of my clients request me as their tech for appointments & procedures, and will only come in when I work. I mostly deal with the exotics, and due to the herniated disc in my back, I give the bigger mammals to the other techs & assistants. When I see someone holding a snake, lizard, bird or anything the wrong way & my doctor gets upset, I tend to jump in and take over without even thinking about it. I spoil him. I guess I just answered my own problem, intense staff training is in order for sure! :main_thumbsup:

 

[Gary Orner]

No worries everyone. See the thing is I see the venomoids a lot as there is a person Near me that makes them. he is a Vet but he vends a show I go to. HAMBURG.

Venomoids IMO have no room in the hobby. NONE. Not for educational shows! Not for zoos. Why you ask? It take the known out of the animal. Knowledge is power. When you take the known out of the animals it becomes more dangerous then the venomous animal.

Lets take an animal that shows very little signs of envenomation if they bite a human. Take a Boomslang. It will not give you pain when you are bit. If you think it is a venomoid you will be dead within 48 hours. If you are bit by a venomoid will you go to the hospital with your PROTOCAL book and say I was bit by said species? HELL NO. You think it is a void and when you dtart feeling the signs of being envenomated it could be too late.

Ok now I took out the safty aspect of owning a venomoid. What other good reason is there to own one? None.

If a person hands you a gun do you not make sure it is unloaded before you start messing with it? Do that with a venomous snake!

How about this one. DR make mistakes all the time. They are sued all the time for trying to save lives. They have one of the hardest jobs around having to remember all the viruses and learn all the time. Every person is different and they need to take all this in account. But yet they make mistakes becuase they are human. FAIR ENOUGH. So are you telling me a VET will not make a mistake? He/she is going to be perfect in everything they do?

Come on guys and gals. Venomoids are the unloaded gun. Atleast I know all my hots are loaded.

 

[Gregg M]

Personally I see no good reason to have a venomous snake "de-venomized"... There are too many things that can go wrong from the operation to when some inexperienced keeper buys one as a cool pet...

Like with many operations, there is a risk of "not making it"... With reptiles, it seems that the mortality rate may be higher when "going under"... I have also spoke to a person who worked for a well known venomoid producer and what I got from the convo was that less than 50% live a week post-op...

So is it really worth it to kill 5 cobras in order to get 5 that someone can play with like a kingsnake??? Even if the mortality rate was only 10% I dont think its worth it...

Then we need to think about the pain the snake must go through post-op... It is well known that pain meds that help us are totally ineffective in reptiles...

Ok, so now this snake makes it through the operation and post-op pain... It starts eating and its ready for sale... Some one buys this venomoid snake knowing it can not kill them if it bites them... Or can it??? There are several well documented cases of a supposed venomoid actually being 100% capable of giving a venomous bite... How does this happen??? There are several reasons...

There are 2 types of venomoid operations... One where the venom duct is cut and tied off and one where the entire gland and duct are removed...

With the first one ducts can either mend and become functional again or new ducts can grow in place of the cut ones...

With the second operation although more effective still has it flaws... If any of the gland or duct tissue is left behind the tissue can heal and a gland can become functional again... It has also been documented that elapids such as cobras can regrow gland tissue...

So now someone is freely handling a venomous snake without realizing it... Pretty dangerous in my opinion...

Venomoids are just a shortcut to keeping hots without the risk... My opinion is if you can not keep a venomous species safely without altering it, you should not be keeping it period...

As far as snakes NEEDING venom to digest prey goes, I personally do not think it is really needed as much as it is an aid... I know that most of my hots eat their prey without injecting venom into it... Plus they all eat prekilled prey so even if they do inject venom, it is not being circulated throughout the preys system making the injected venom worthless...

Anyway, it is my opinion that venomoids are not needed and can be more trouble than they are worth...