Who is responsible for them!

[ElapidSVT]

imo only a certaintype of person has a *need* to pin someone down and place blame when they haven't been directly affected...


get real.. you're comparing the murder of 6 million jews to breeding lizards????

how is that odd? please do explain

"i find it odd that people other then the jews are angry about the Holocaust"

not to be rude but i mean just because its not affecting someone doesnt mean they should turn a blind eye.

 

[ElapidSVT]

so... let's say you hatched out a solid black leo that breeds true but you cannot prove the lineage because all your eggs got mixed up... you are saying that it's unethical to breed them and profit?


trying to force your idea of ethics on someone else is, inherently unethical.

Didn't mean to take a negative spin...i'm just really passionate about "unique" people and things... if I happened to hatch some random awesome mutation out of my collection, I would first make sure I was aware of the exact lineage of the hatchling...i'm really not sure what I might do with it after that.

 

[JordanAng420]

I'm not saying it's unethical at all, I just think it would become quite confusing as far as how I produced the animal without knowing the genetics behind it.

I wasn't forcing anything. Just giving my opinion. This thread has upset me.

 

[Kitsune]

Wow, I think I love you Nigel.:heart:

Seriously, Nigel. lol. Great post. =P

 

[Nigel4less]

Wow, I think I love you Nigel.:heart:

Sorry I was "Just venting"

 

[eric]

To all the Enigma downers in the world! PRESS ME :main_thumbsup:

 

[Riyo]

Ahahaha... thanks, I needed that

 

[THE WHISPERER]

Nice Eric, I couldn't help it I watched it all the way through

 

[Blizzard Lizard]

Wow thats great!

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

To me it a litte weird that all the top breeders are linked together. This is a business and you are in compition to survive and keep going.

Did it ever occur to you that the majority of US gecko breeders actually like and respect each other? What about talking and discussing the projects, future, and responsibilities of breeding geckos with each other? Sure, we are competitors in the market scheme of things, but did it occur to you that most of us actually cooperate with each other when it comes to breeding projects and fair pricing? Why is it so difficult to understand that even if we ARE competitors, that most of us actually have a deep sense of professional and ethical connection with one another? The truth is, we could not survive without each other!

The rest of you need to just get over yourselves. This is a COMMUNIY. If you do not understand what that word means, then Google it. We are a unique group of people from around the world that happen to share the joy of keeping and breeding leopard geckos. There are some of us that have been working with these beautiful creatures since many of you were still in training pants, and even more that are new to the hobby. We ALL have something to contribute.

For the few that can't seem to understand it, there really isn't any 'secret handshake'!!! We talk to each other, for Pete's sake. We discuss issues like this, and have been since the very first Enigma (or any other 'new' morph for that matter) was introduced. NOT ONE SINGLE 'NEW' MORPH THAT WAS EVER INTRODUCED WAS WITHOUT THEIR OWN INHERENT PROBLEMS OR ISSUES. The simple fact that MOST of the breeders who talk to each other and share similar ethics and values, have collectively targeted their projects with the best interest of the geckos and the general community in mind.

Hell yes, WE have done the work for the breeders who produced these morphs (who laughed all the way to the bank). The breeders who had these morphs pop out of their colonies could care less about ethics or the residual effects of not proving them out, or having issues tested and remedied. That's what the rest of us do! That's why we "take care of our own", because every damned one of you here is our own! Your success is OUR succes!!!

Unique traits are genetic defects??? So the fact that my ears stick out a little and I have bipolar disorder, that makes me genetically defective? And so therefore, should not have children??? Sorry, that just p****s me off a little.

I agree! So, if ethics is the question here, should albinos of any specie be propagated? Albinism is an undesireable genetic trait! Should Blue Merle Aussie dogs be wiped off the planet because they have a high rate of deafness? If someone has a genetic disease, should they be not be allowed to have children? Get real here! The only unethical thing about breeding or selling Enigmas would be to not disclose to the buyers if the animal exhibited a problem of ANY kind.

Yes there ARE many breeders who have questionable ethics. One or two of them might even show their faces around here... but I guarantee the majority of breeders here on this forum know a LOT more than the rest of you do about what's going on in the leopard gecko world. AND... the more we learn, the more will be shared.

Until then, if you have a beef about the ethics of the breeder who produced the first Enigma, I suggest you take it up directly with HIM, and let the rest of us do his job for him.

 

[JBGecko]

Wow, after all that I think I need a drink.:main_thumbsup:

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

Wow, after all that I think I need a drink.:main_thumbsup:

Me, too... it's been a crappy day.

 

[justindh1]

I am glad tha everyone seems passionate about this hobby and their views. Thats what makes america the great country because we all can think what we want, do want we want, and say want we want.

I know the enigma is a sensative subject but bringing this out could help any other morph that comes out with defaults, in the future, as bad as this one in the beginning. Being sensative to light is crappy but hey theres alot of humans that are too. Its not as bad a circling or a twitch but they all are defaults.

I just think that this thread was about what happens when a new morph comes out with genetic defaults and what should be the process to handle it. It shouldn't just be thrown out and sold right off the bat and thats what i wanted to convey. Of course thats my opinion and your intitled to your about selling hot off the press morphs with genetic defaults. You have to get people energized and rowled up about the topic to want to talk about it and i think that happened.

This isn't a thread to piss anyone off its just a thread to discuss about what happened in the past with the enigma and what should happen in the futre with any other gecko with very noticeable, life altering genetic problems.





Just noticed the middle 6 pages of discussion of this thread where missing! Does that happen normally when a thread really gets long?

 

[BalloonzForU]

Justin, the simple fact is EVERYONE is responsible, no just one person/breeder.

If we weren't so damn hungry for new morphs the Enigmas may have sat on a shelf somewhere a little longer than 6 years, which BTW is probably the longest to have take to be released. Do you not realize every year that we(USA) can not import W/C Leos that their genetics are becoming weaker and weaker because we are outcrossing with stock that's just about all related to each other anyway's? I personally know of only two W/C animals in the states, one I just missed out on buying 4 years ago and one that another member here owned but it has since died of old age. I'm sure there are many more legal W/Cs here, I just don't know who owns them, but they are very few and far between, and they are getting old.

You expecting testing that cost more than what the average house costs would make new morphs unattainable by anyone for any type of reptile. ALL MORPHs are genetically inferior to their W/C cousin, because they are mutants. If you really want to make an argument you can side with those who think we shouldn't even breed morphs at all, because they are mutants. :main_rolleyes:

Personally I would close this thread. The answer you are looking for is not gong to be answerd, because it's against the TOS. You are questioning a breeders ethics without naming anyone to keep you within the guidlines of TOS, yet you want someone to name a breeder, as soon as that happens it's against TOS so you are chaising your tail. Let it go!

 

[justindh1]

I'm not looking to call anyone out and I keep saying that it just need to be put out there of what was actually done with this morph in the very beginning. Everyone wants to make it about just the genetic defaults. I just want to know what was done to help it and no body can give a answere to that for some reason even tho many had a hand in it. I don't want to know who did what, i want to know what was done. Did they actually do anything in the beginning or not?

It seems to be a sensative subject for some reason and don't know why. Is it such a bad thing that I want to know what was done? Is it bad that i want to understand this morph more? I think that this morph deserves the right to have its life understood more from the beginning. Maybe if people knew what was done in the very beginning then they might actually be more apt to buying one. Maybe the demand in the market would increase if people knew the history more. All we know that it was produce by a breeder, sold to some more, and here we are now with a gecko that has very little history known to anyone but the people that had their hands in the jar.

Is it so hard to say "this was done" in the beginning to understand this morph more or is it more hard to say this wasn't done. Its not to call anyone out but to bring the story more informations so people can understand it better and the process that was done to bring the enigma to where it is today. No one has to say this specific breeder did this or that!

The main point to this thread is to get people think about right and wrong, what was done right and what was done wrong! We obviously all have differant ideas of that!

 

[Baoh]

Is it so hard to say "this was done" in the beginning to understand this morph more or is it more hard to say this wasn't done?

I keep a few Enigmas and I would love to perform breeding experiments to verify a couple things without some of the emotional biases I see being attached to this, but it's a matter of resourcing and patience. Anything I do potentially takes away from something else. In this case, project space and money. I am sure that everyone else faces the same thing. I'd have to add another rack or set of racks, more Enigmas, more Wild Types, more feeders, and more electronics. This would mean it would draw away from the projects which are more useful/interesting to me, too. I'd also be producing more geckos, which I would have to find more homes for.

If you want, feel free to do the experiments.

Get 2 Enigma males, 2 Wild Type males, 10 Enigma females, and 10 Wild Type females. Cross each Enigma male to 5 out of each female group. Record the number of eggs laid from each female and, if you can, record the number of eggs that seemed to have been resorbed as well as ovulation cycles that did not appear to give rise to eggs despite mating. Incubate all eggs for female at perhaps 81-82F with a decent digital incubator that has low fluctuation. Record all infertile eggs, eggs that were fertile but failed to develop, eggs that developed but died at/near term, and hatchlings. Obviously, record the morphs. Now, raise all of the females that were born of Enigma dams separately and all of the females that were born of Wild Type dams seperately.

When large enough to breed safely, breed each of the 2 Wild Type males to half of the 2 female Enigma groups. Record the same data categories as last time. Incubate the same way as last time. See the results. Do the math. See what happened from WT x (Enigma x Enigma). See what happened from WT x (Enigma x WT). Try to align the numbers with known behaviors of dominant genes, since we already know some form of dominance is at play.

Present results to the community on a number of fora.

Now scramble to try to place the many geckos you have spent and you're now spending a bunch of money on by doing this experiment.

Honestly, the above experiment isn't even necessarily enough. Maybe ten times that volume would start giving you more statistically reliable data. So either use ten times that volume or enlist nine other willing leopard gecko breeders to perform the exact same experiment in the same way.

Unless you or someone else is willing to do the above, well, you're not really offering a solution to the so-called "problem".

Do you think I or anyone else is willing to give up their dedicated projects in order to accomodate what it takes to provide this type and volume of data? Do you think most breeders will honestly do the math and not see what they want to see before the data is tortured until it confesses? Doubtful on both counts. Especially the first, due to cost. The latter would be due to excitement and ego.

There you have it.

 

[KelliH]

I keep a few Enigmas and I would love to perform breeding experiments to verify a couple things without some of the emotional biases I see being attached to this, but it's a matter of resourcing and patience. Anything I do potentially takes away from something else. In this case, project space and money. I am sure that everyone else faces the same thing. I'd have to add another rack or set of racks, more Enigmas, more Wild Types, more feeders, and more electronics. This would mean it would draw away from the projects which are more useful/interesting to me, too. I'd also be producing more geckos, which I would have to find more homes for.

If you want, feel free to do the experiments.

Get 2 Enigma males, 2 Wild Type males, 10 Enigma females, and 10 Wild Type females. Cross each Enigma male to 5 out of each female group. Record the number of eggs laid from each female and, if you can, record the number of eggs that seemed to have been resorbed as well as ovulation cycles that did not appear to give rise to eggs despite mating. Incubate all eggs for female at perhaps 81-82F with a decent digital incubator that has low fluctuation. Record all infertile eggs, eggs that were fertile but failed to develop, eggs that developed but died at/near term, and hatchlings. Obviously, record the morphs. Now, raise all of the females that were born of Enigma dams separately and all of the females that were born of Wild Type dams seperately.

When large enough to breed safely, breed each of the 2 Wild Type males to half of the 2 female Enigma groups. Record the same data categories as last time. Incubate the same way as last time. See the results. Do the math. See what happened from WT x (Enigma x Enigma). See what happened from WT x (Enigma x WT). Try to align the numbers with known behaviors of dominant genes, since we already know some form of dominance is at play.

Present results to the community on a number of fora.

Now scramble to try to place the many geckos you have spent and you're now spending a bunch of money on by doing this experiment.

Honestly, the above experiment isn't even necessarily enough. Maybe ten times that volume would start giving you more statistically reliable data. So either use ten times that volume or enlist nine other willing leopard gecko breeders to perform the exact same experiment in the same way.

Unless you or someone else is willing to do the above, well, you're not really offering a solution to the so-called "problem".

Do you think I or anyone else is willing to give up their dedicated projects in order to accomodate what it takes to provide this type and volume of data? Do you think most breeders will honestly do the math and not see what they want to see before the data is tortured until it confesses? Doubtful on both counts. Especially the first, due to cost. The latter would be due to excitement and ego.

There you have it.

A most excellent post and suggestion.

 

[KelliH]

I'm not looking to call anyone out and I keep saying that it just need to be put out there of what was actually done with this morph in the very beginning. Everyone wants to make it about just the genetic defaults. I just want to know what was done to help it and no body can give a answere to that for some reason even tho many had a hand in it. I don't want to know who did what, i want to know what was done. Did they actually do anything in the beginning or not?

It seems to be a sensative subject for some reason and don't know why. Is it such a bad thing that I want to know what was done? Is it bad that i want to understand this morph more? I think that this morph deserves the right to have its life understood more from the beginning. Maybe if people knew what was done in the very beginning then they might actually be more apt to buying one. Maybe the demand in the market would increase if people knew the history more. All we know that it was produce by a breeder, sold to some more, and here we are now with a gecko that has very little history known to anyone but the people that had their hands in the jar.

Is it so hard to say "this was done" in the beginning to understand this morph more or is it more hard to say this wasn't done. Its not to call anyone out but to bring the story more informations so people can understand it better and the process that was done to bring the enigma to where it is today. No one has to say this specific breeder did this or that!

The main point to this thread is to get people think about right and wrong, what was done right and what was done wrong! We obviously all have differant ideas of that!

So your question is: what was "done" with the Enigmas in the beginning? Well why would you think any of us would know? The original producer of Enigmas is not even a member here and that person would be the one to ask, wouldn't you think?

 

[OhioGecko]

I just want to know what was done to help it and no body can give a answere to that for some reason even tho many had a hand in it. I don't want to know who did what, i want to know what was done. Did they actually do anything in the beginning or not?

Help it? and do what? :main_huh:

 

[justindh1]

Well i guess if that person is the only one who know what was done and is the responsible party of the enimga. So if they are the only one who would of done something or not then they would be the one with all the answeres. I just don't see him being the only person who had these before being introduced and sold.

Like you said before, most every breeder shares information and is friendly with each other, so then somebody else must know the story besides one person. Just thats what i think! Sounds weird! if i invested money in a new morph from a breeder that no one else has, or limited people do, then i would want to know everything about it from parents, to hatchling, to adult and anything else i feel like asking that is important but i guess everyone isn't like me. I guess no one else has cared enought to ask or just don't wanna know.