Who is responsible for them!

[justindh1]

I keep a few Enigmas and I would love to perform breeding experiments to verify a couple things without some of the emotional biases I see being attached to this, but it's a matter of resourcing and patience. Anything I do potentially takes away from something else. In this case, project space and money. I am sure that everyone else faces the same thing. I'd have to add another rack or set of racks, more Enigmas, more Wild Types, more feeders, and more electronics. This would mean it would draw away from the projects which are more useful/interesting to me, too. I'd also be producing more geckos, which I would have to find more homes for.

If you want, feel free to do the experiments.

Get 2 Enigma males, 2 Wild Type males, 10 Enigma females, and 10 Wild Type females. Cross each Enigma male to 5 out of each female group. Record the number of eggs laid from each female and, if you can, record the number of eggs that seemed to have been resorbed as well as ovulation cycles that did not appear to give rise to eggs despite mating. Incubate all eggs for female at perhaps 81-82F with a decent digital incubator that has low fluctuation. Record all infertile eggs, eggs that were fertile but failed to develop, eggs that developed but died at/near term, and hatchlings. Obviously, record the morphs. Now, raise all of the females that were born of Enigma dams separately and all of the females that were born of Wild Type dams seperately.

When large enough to breed safely, breed each of the 2 Wild Type males to half of the 2 female Enigma groups. Record the same data categories as last time. Incubate the same way as last time. See the results. Do the math. See what happened from WT x (Enigma x Enigma). See what happened from WT x (Enigma x WT). Try to align the numbers with known behaviors of dominant genes, since we already know some form of dominance is at play.

Present results to the community on a number of fora.

Now scramble to try to place the many geckos you have spent and you're now spending a bunch of money on by doing this experiment.

Honestly, the above experiment isn't even necessarily enough. Maybe ten times that volume would start giving you more statistically reliable data. So either use ten times that volume or enlist nine other willing leopard gecko breeders to perform the exact same experiment in the same way.

Unless you or someone else is willing to do the above, well, you're not really offering a solution to the so-called "problem".

Do you think I or anyone else is willing to give up their dedicated projects in order to accomodate what it takes to provide this type and volume of data? Do you think most breeders will honestly do the math and not see what they want to see before the data is tortured until it confesses? Doubtful on both counts. Especially the first, due to cost. The latter would be due to excitement and ego.

There you have it.

So your sayin that people don't want to do this because of having better things to do, better project and better things to spend money on! If i had a hand in the start of the enigma then hell ya i would to make myself feel better for letting this gecko get out with problems. The breeders in the beginning didn't have better things to do then make money off this gecko so why don't they do it. They made the money off everyone spending their hard earned cash in the beginning and then gettin a defected morph. Do you think that they deserved that? Do you think in the beginning that the breeders told everyone that this geckos has problems, i doubt it! Is it kind of weird that after the market has started to go down then people starts to test them once the defects were more known and everyone started talking about it.

 

[Baoh]

So your sayin that people don't want to do this because of having better things to do, better project and better things to spend money on! If i had a hand in the start of the enigma then hell ya i would to make myself feel better for letting this gecko get out with problems. The breeders in the beginning didn't have better things to do then make money off this gecko so why don't they do it. They made the money off everyone spending their hard earned cash in the beginning and then gettin a defected morph. Do you think that they deserved that? Do you think in the beginning that the breeders told everyone that this geckos has problems, i doubt it! Is it kind of weird that after the market has started to go down then people starts to test them once the defects were more known and everyone started talking about it.

Not necessarily "better" things to do, but limits to what they can realistically commit to doing. Other things to do.

Earlier on, with the price per animal, most probably also could not financially afford to do it.

What is a defective morph? As someone else pointed out, just about every morph is defective compared to Wild Type leo standards. Do you notice Enigmas to be in some sort of pain from their condition? I do not. Now, you could argue that the circling may have a discomfort component to it, but I could then argue that an albino will have discomfort relative to a normal leo in relatively bright ambient lighting.

Are you volunteering today to be an active part of what you might consider to be a solution to what you consider to be a problem from years in the past? If so, what are you going to do? What is your action plan?

 

[BalloonzForU]

I'm not looking to call anyone out and I keep saying that it just need to be put out there of what was actually done with this morph in the very beginning.

Fogive me if I read this wrong....

Title of your thread.... Who is responsible for them!

Has anyone even tried to figure out who is responsible for not making this morphs genetics stong before selling them for their profit?

Sounds like to me you ARE asking who! :main_rolleyes:

 

[Sunrise Reptile]

I think that we can all agree that more breeding of this beautiful and mysterious morph needs to be done. But let's be honest here. NOBODY really has the financial means, nor the over-abundance of time, to do the testing being recommended in earlier posts. But I think that with the many people breeding Enigmas, regardless of the scale, we can gain some very valuable information. I for one will share all my experiences, and I'm 100% positive that I'm not the only one. That's what makes this community so valuable. This is, in my opinion, far more valuable than any one person's "pipe dream" of the perfect test breeding. :main_rolleyes:

 

[Gregg M]

Justin, I dont know much but here is what I do know...

#1. You as a novice keeper/?breeder?, should learn before starting threads and stating your opinion on subjects you know nothing about...

#2. Kelli was given the chance to work with a brand new morph to test the genetics and to eventually market them... The breeder who first produced these was Mark Bell...

#3. Like ALL new morphs, the possible defects of the genetic mutaion due to whatever reason were not worked out before its release... But at least how the genetics worked was sorted before it release which is more than you can say for other morphs...

#4. Kelli released the Enigmas early on to give certain breeders the chance to get in on the ground floor of a cool new project... As a breeder of reptiles one should know there is a huge chance that the genetics will not be 100% worked out with a new morph and it becomes the job of everyone getting in on the ground floor to work out the bugs or strenthen the blood line... On top of all of that, Kelli did disclose the "problems" with them...

I do not think it had anything to do with bad ethics or breeders trying to make a quick buck... You need to understand that anyone who buys in on a brand new morph will most likely be trying to make money reproducing it and there is nothing wrong with that at all..

Honestly there is no blame to put on anyone... Its a new morph with some issues... Issues that anyone who gets involved with them knows about... I think you are way off track with your thinking of this as an ethical issue...

 

[stevehiss]

Justin, I dont know much but here is what I do know...

#1. You as a novice keeper/?breeder?, should learn before starting threads and stating your opinion on subjects you know nothing about...

#2. Kelli was given the chance to work with a brand new morph to test the genetics and to eventually market them... The breeder who first produced these was Mark Bell...

#3. Like ALL new morphs, the possible defects of the genetic mutaion due to whatever reason were not worked out before its release... But at least how the genetics worked was sorted before it release which is more than you can say for other morphs...

#4. Kelli released the Enigmas early on to give certain breeders the chance to get in on the ground floor of a cool new project... As a breeder of reptiles one should know there is a huge chance that the genetics will not be 100% worked out with a new morph and it becomes the job of everyone getting in on the ground floor to work out the bugs or strenthen the blood line... On top of all of that, Kelli did disclose the "problems" with them...

I do not think it had anything to do with bad ethics or breeders trying to make a quick buck... You need to understand that anyone who buys in on a brand new morph will most likely be trying to make money reproducing it and there is nothing wrong with that at all..

Honestly there is no blame to put on anyone... Its a new morph with some issues... Issues that anyone who gets involved with them knows about... I think you are way off track with your thinking of this as an ethical issue...

Gregg,

This is a great post. There is one correction that I need to make to it though. It was not Kelli that released the Enigmas. It was Mark Bell. Kelli only brokered these for Mark for a small percentage of each sale.

Originally we were given 2.2 to test breed and figure out the genetics of the things. Then a few months later Mark made the decision that he did not want to wait for 2 breeding seasons and he decided to sell them now. We did not want to do this and tried to talk him out of it, but he said he wanted to start selling them anyway.

The only reason that we made the decision to broker the first Enigmas for Mark was to be one of the first people to work with this incredible new morph. When we first got the Enigmas, we were not aware that there were any issues at all with them. When Mark sent us the first batch to sell, that is when we noticed that there were some issues and we did not know what it was. We just thought that it was some kind of inbreeding problem. To this day we still do not know exactly what it is.

I hope this clears the air a little more about the Enigma beginnings.

 

[acpart]

It seems to me that the last few posts have provided as much information about this topic that we're going to get. I, for one, am interested in moving on to a much more interesting question --what is going on with enigma breeding now?

I can see why no one may have the resources (time, space,money) to do the kind of breeding experiment that was proposed earlier, but I suspect that we could collect some valuable anecdotal information from people on the forums who breed enigmas. A while ago we had a thread that pooled information about temperature sexing results for Mack snows. We could do a similar thread for enigma breeding results. I would recommend a separate thread from this one and cannot participate at this time because I have no enigma breeding results.

Aliza

 

[justindh1]

See thats twice as much information that is now known, to me anyways, about what happened in the beginning. Its just that sometimes people want to know a little more info about what, where, and how the enigma got started! When something comes out with "uknown" genetics, you have to know the history to be able to understand it more. Did they originally come from inbreeding or did they just pop out randomly? Did they do inbreeding to speed up the process of obtaining more with the enigma genetics? There is alot of questions like these that have answeres to them.

Justin, I dont know much but here is what I do know...

#1. You as a novice keeper/?breeder?, should learn before starting threads and stating your opinion on subjects you know nothing about...

#2. Kelli was given the chance to work with a brand new morph to test the genetics and to eventually market them... The breeder who first produced these was Mark Bell...

#3. Like ALL new morphs, the possible defects of the genetic mutaion due to whatever reason were not worked out before its release... But at least how the genetics worked was sorted before it release which is more than you can say for other morphs...

#4. Kelli released the Enigmas early on to give certain breeders the chance to get in on the ground floor of a cool new project... As a breeder of reptiles one should know there is a huge chance that the genetics will not be 100% worked out with a new morph and it becomes the job of everyone getting in on the ground floor to work out the bugs or strenthen the blood line... On top of all of that, Kelli did disclose the "problems" with them...

I do not think it had anything to do with bad ethics or breeders trying to make a quick buck... You need to understand that anyone who buys in on a brand new morph will most likely be trying to make money reproducing it and there is nothing wrong with that at all..

Honestly there is no blame to put on anyone... Its a new morph with some issues... Issues that anyone who gets involved with them knows about... I think you are way off track with your thinking of this as an ethical issue...

Now i thought this forum was for people to learn and understand more and to ask questions? I might be a newbie/novice to this forum and to breeding but that doesn't mean i'm ignorant! That doesn't make me unqualified to ask questions and to learn about what I think is important to me! So i guess that just because i havn't breed leos that much and havn't messed with the enigmas that makes me unknowledgable about genetics, breeding, and whats right and wrong. I may not have a vast experience about breeding geckos but that doesn't mean that don't know anything else that deals with them.

I understand that people are also trying to make it profitable to enjoy their hobby. I have no problem with that. Who wouldn't want to make money doing what they enjoy? If you bring new gentics in then you have to be willing to put in the time, money, and be willing to dealing with the new genetics and any problems. Thats what come with it and if you can't deal with it in the right way then you shouldn't do it. ITs just like anything in this hobby. You have to make sure you can afford it, handle it, and have the time!

 

[Mel&Keith]

See thats twice as much information that is now known, to me anyways, about what happened in the beginning. Its just that sometimes people want to know a little more info about what, where, and how the enigma got started! When something comes out with "uknown" genetics, you have to know the history to be able to understand it more. Did they originally come from inbreeding or did they just pop out randomly? Did they do inbreeding to speed up the process of obtaining more with the enigma genetics? There is alot of questions like these that have answeres to them.

That's all information that has been discussed on this forum before.

Here's one thread and another. There are more you just have to look.

 

[Gregg M]

If you bring new gentics in then you have to be willing to put in the time, money, and be willing to dealing with the new genetics and any problems. Thats what come with it and if you can't deal with it in the right way then you shouldn't do it. ITs just like anything in this hobby. You have to make sure you can afford it, handle it, and have the time!

Why would anyone who produces a new morph need to invest more money than they would if they were breeding normals??? I do not get your logic...

Time??? What other time does a breeder have than to care for and breed animals??? Not too sure how this would change with the addition of a new morph being produced...

 

[OhioGecko]

Now i thought this forum was for people to learn and understand more and to ask questions? I might be a newbie/novice to this forum and to breeding but that doesn't mean i'm ignorant! That doesn't make me unqualified to ask questions and to learn about what I think is important to me! So i guess that just because i havn't breed leos that much and havn't messed with the enigmas that makes me unknowledgable about genetics, breeding, and whats right and wrong. I may not have a vast experience about breeding geckos but that doesn't mean that don't know anything else that deals with them.

Justin I agree with you about asking questions but when you start debating ethics than your crossing the line. You have asked some great questions with good reasoning but you have also crossed the line which is why you are getting put in your place. Gregg's wording is correct IMO.

I understand that people are also trying to make it profitable to enjoy their hobby. I have no problem with that. Who wouldn't want to make money doing what they enjoy? If you bring new gentics in then you have to be willing to put in the time, money, and be willing to dealing with the new genetics and any problems. Thats what come with it and if you can't deal with it in the right way then you shouldn't do it. ITs just like anything in this hobby. You have to make sure you can afford it, handle it, and have the time!

Again this goes back to inexperience and lack of knowledge. It has been explained but your not getting it. Sorry for the directness :main_huh:. Look up in the dictionary what Enigma means. This is a good start to finding out a little about this morph.

Like Kelli said the morph popped up in the early 2000's that is 9 years ago. They released them in 2006, 3 years ago.
Nobody knows the exact method of making an Enigma or the exact genes. If a breeder were to invest in this project today they could spend 3-5 years with 100's of geckos and still not know any more than we do today. The trait is definately some form of dominant but to what extent is unknown. The fact is no breeder is going to hold back a somewhat perdictable morph that is truly incredible for 8 -10 years becuase they can't prove the genetics perfectly.

This is what we do know. Alot? or some? of the early Enigmas had kinked tails and the infamous circling trait. As breeding has gone into 2nd, 3rd, 4th generations these negative traits have greatly decreased. The Enigma morph is beautiful and has greatly intensified other morphs when combined.

I personally have read many issues about Enigmas but out of the 30-40 enigmas I have produced only two have had circling traits. One was a premie Enigma 1.1g hatchling that stopped circling as soon as it reached 5 grams. The other was a healthy Tremper Enigma that quit circling after 6 weeks. Neither shows any signs of circling even if stressed today. I also have found that my Enigmas are much calmer and easier to handle than the other morphs. This has been my experience and what I know about the morph.

Would you be willing to invest in the project and figure it out. You can get an Enigma now for $100. Get a male and three females. At the end of the year you will have 40 - 60 hatchlings that you can feed and keep data on. Incubate half female and half male and breed three males back to the three orginal females, bring in 3 more non-related females and 3 more non related males to breed to 3 other Enigma females. So year two will have 60 adults, 50 hatchlings from the new females, and another 150 hatchlings from the three new males you breed to your existing females. Hmmmm... do you think you will have enough data yet? Or that you just confirmed that it is somewhat a dominant trait and about 50% of the geckos you breed will be Enigmas from an Enigma to non-Enigma pairing.

Just please don't be questioning ethics repeatedly. Questions and understanding is fine, but asking why they released them when you have been told repeatedly is a bit annoying. The answer is not going to change.... the breeder is in the business to make money. The trait was known to be dominant but not know exactly..... therefore the name "Enigma". The name basically disclosed to all buyers that is was absolutley know. Traits were explained, but as with other new morphs the bad triats can usually be breed out. Other breeders gambled on the morph and went with it. Guess what... the circling and kinked tails started disappearing with future generations.


I know I have probabally offended you and I apoligize.

-The End

 

[justindh1]

In one of the post about enigmas that kelli pointed out says as long as everyone outcrosses then there shouldn't be any problems with the offspring and also there will be slight flaws that will be eliminated by outcrossing. The only flaws that is ever talked about is the tail kinks and nothing else.
These post only talk about the enigma problems and compairing it to the mack pastel. It doesn't talk about how the enigma came about and how it was handled in the beginning.

I really don't think that i am being out in my place at all! I only have been given very little informations about the start of the morph and all everyone keeps talking about it the cost and time that it would take to do test. I understand that the morph is alot better today then it was at first and that that genetics have been outcrossed enought to eliminate problems. I just think this should of been done before it got to the public. Obviously everyone has differant opinions about this. Also you didn't say anything that offended me as much as you probably wanted to, its conversation and debating. It takes more then that to get me heated up, unlike others!

I just think that there should be more informations about new morphs and the history of it available before everyone jumps on the train. If people knew more about the problems in the beginnning then would it of been so fantastic to everyone? I just don't see how everyone doesn't care that animals are breed and sold with problems! Yes, some other morphs have problems, like the albino, but most people solve that by not putting a bright llight on it. Albinoism is something that is seen in the wild so its not something we came up with. I guess its going to take alot more for me to see that the enigma wasn't release ealry with problems.

 

[Gregg M]

Justin, for like the tenth time in this thread, the history of this morph has been talked about on this and other forums a hundred times even before its release...

Everyone knows it was a random mutaion that came from Mark Bells breeding stock...

Everyone knows that Kelli was given the chance to prove the genetics before anyone else in the States got their hands on them...

Everyone knows that Kelli figured out the genetics and was then able to market the morph...

Everyone who bought an Enigma was told about the issues...

Everyone knows that when you get in on a project in its infancy, you can expect to run into issues you normally would not expect... Thats just how it is... That is the chance you take when getting in on the ground floor...

So, like I said, you really should not state your opinion in matters you do not know about... The more you stick your foot in your mouth the harder it is to remove it!!!

Yes, some other morphs have problems, like the albino, but most people solve that by not putting a bright llight on it. Albinoism is something that is seen in the wild so its not something we came up with. I guess its going to take alot more for me to see that the enigma wasn't release ealry with problems.

This statement alone tells me how much you really need to read more and learn before you try getting your self into educated talks on the forum...

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

I just think that there should be more informations about new morphs and the history of it available before everyone jumps on the train.

Justin, NO ONE is debating this! What is it going to take to help you understand that? YEEESSSSS!!!! Every 'breeder' who had produced a NEW morph was more concerned with getting it introduced immediately so they could make a load of money! They did not care about ethics. They did not care about proving the genetics out. They did not care about ANYTHING except running to the bank with all the money they made from crazed gecko collectors, keepers, and other breeders. They did not give a crap about proving or testing anything! They wanted our money and the 'fame' that goes along with producing a new genetic morph.

Like I have been trying to say in my posts on this thread (which is obviously falling on deaf ears) is that at this point, it really doesn't matter WHO is responsible. Like Felicia said in her earlier post... "We are ALL responsible". The Enigma is here now, an it is up to the ethical and responsible breeders who now work with this beautiful gecko to do the work the original 'creator' should have done before introducing the morph. That's the way it is, and the way it always has been.

There is absolutely no point in arguing this any further! If you are looking to pin a blame on someone, I dare you to give Mark Bell a call. I can guarantee the response you would get, but I cannot post it here on this forum... otherwise I would be breaking the TOS of this website that "I" have to enforce!

 

[Nigel4less]

There is absolutely no point in arguing this any further! If you are looking to pin a blame on someone, I dare you to give Mark Bell a call. I can guarantee the response you would get, but I cannot post it here on this forum... otherwise I would be breaking the TOS of this website that "I" have to enforce!

www.reptileindustries.com, There's an E-mail for you on the site

 

[Stitchex]

i find it odd that people that don't even have enigmas would even care.

I don't have any Enigmas, yet I care about the mental problems they show; why would I, you ask? I see that there are plenty of people trying to get them back on the right track, genetically strengthened, and I'm sure they will- take the Super Snow, for example. As someone on here stated before, they were at first underweight and hard to retain the weight. But now, look! They're fine! Okay, back to the reason I quoted that. I care because it's a mystery, a problem that needs fixing. I care because it can eventually effect my "collection"(and others, for that matter) if I happen to buy a Leopard gecko that shows the enigma traits.

Marcia is right, it is beating a dead horse. They were released quite a while ago, so why make a whole new thread now, years later, trying to place the blame? A bit late, if you ask me. There is the search engine to find all the answers you need.

Sorry if this sounded a little harsh, I'm just putting it how I see it.

 

[crotaphytidae]

Justin, it bothers me that you continue to try and belittle breeders. I have nothing but the utmost respect for the breeders and the keepers on this site and they all love their animals. From this thread and other posts by you It seems to me that you just like to argue for the sake of arguing. You have also back tracked numerous times in this one thread alone. Please just leave the subject alone, there is no more to discuse. The enigma morph is being outcrossed and that should be enough, simply that the "problems" are being corrected with tremendous results to boot.

 

[JordanAng420]

There's been so much negativity and disrespect in this thread. I wish topics like this could be discussed without such malignancy. Such a shame...

I just don't see how everyone doesn't care that animals are breed and sold with problems!

Do you have ANY IDEA how many breeders there are...not just reptile breeders...who breed solely for profit??? Who don't care the LEAST BIT about health, happiness, or what's best for the animal they're breeding? There are THOUSANDS of puppy mills, kitty mills, and all kinds of other "factories" of animals. Some circling and twitching are nothing to worry about according to them...as long as it's got good lineage & can be sold for a decent amount it will be.

The problem is EVERYWHERE. Not just with enigmas.

 

[justindh1]

The problem is EVERYWHERE. Not just with enigmas.

Of course there are just read in this thread and you will see people bringing this up already about dogs that have genetic problems and being deaf when they are born They dont think that it should be stopped just because some dogs can't hear. It is a problem everywhere and your opinions about every animal depicts them all. You can't think its alright for one animal to breed with genetic problems and not think its alright with others. People are breeding dogs with shorter snouts because its more appealing to them and not worrying that it will affect thier life.

What you do will depict you opinions and what you feel is right and wrong. People are free to think and do what they want. If you want to breed to make brighter colors or what ever, just think of the animals to when doing this. Lets just care more about whether it will affect the animal or not and thats what should be more important.



People can say what ever they want to and try to make people think they put the animals first but actions speak louder then words and their actions say differant then what they say.

 

[goReptiles]

I just think that there should be more informations about new morphs and the history of it available before everyone jumps on the train. If people knew more about the problems in the beginnning then would it of been so fantastic to everyone?

When sold the geckos have problems are generally shared with the buyer. If not, then that's an ethical problem; just means that you have to watch who you buy from. I have 3 enigmas, and have not experienced any problems with them; the problems that enigmas have now are not nearly as common as they once were. It happens with most new morphs- problems in the beginning (with the breeder and with the public) and fewer problems as the geckos are out-crossed.

As for the history, nothing has ever been really hidden about the morph. A little research and less accusations, and you would have easily found the information.

You keep saying that you know nothing about the history of Enigmas, and yet everyone has told you everything that is known about the history, except for what the originator knows. The only way that you will be able to get the details about the official origin, is to ask him, otherwise you've been told what the people here know.

Just remember the nicer that you are and the less rudeness in your tone, the easier it will be to find your answers. The people here are wonderful and very willing to help those who are appreciative.