Mixing Toad Species?

[katie_]

Can this be done?
I have 2 European Green Toads currently. We just received some European Spadefoot Toads at work and I LOVE THEM.
They are the same size, so I wouldnt be worried about them eating each other..
Are there any other risks associated with mixing different species of toads?

 

[animeavatar]

Well, normally it isn't recommended to mix animals( or frogs so I assume toads count too)... Just because they might not eat eachother they might fight and injure themselves...

 

[Dimidiata]

Dont EGT get 3" and ESFT get 4"?? would that make a diffrence?

 

[katie_]

I dont think one inch would make a difference.
Do toads fight?

 

[Dimidiata]

I know certain species will eat toads bigger then themselves, well try. Not sure if they fight? never really crossed my mind that toads may be territorial.

 

[animeavatar]

Dunno. How big is the enclosure?

 

[katie_]

My toads are dumb. I dont know if they fight, I just wondered if someone had a similar experience.

 

[M_surinamensis]

Are there any other risks associated with mixing different species of toads?

Yes.

• Predatory behaviors: even if similar in size, because their feeding responses tend to be strongly motion based, there is increased risk of injury to limbs and digits.
• Territorial behaviors: potentially outright dominance among some species, but even subtle effects and avoidance can have an impact on thermoregulation, feeding and access to water.
• Strength of feeding response: generally one species or the other will be more active and more reactive to the presence of food. This makes it difficult to ensure the more reserved or retiring species is being properly fed.
• Toxicity: all amphibians produce toxins. While many of these are not strong enough to cause a clinical response in humans, they can be quite dangerous to one another. Amphibians are particularly sensitive to surface contact because of the nature of their skin. Incidental contact with the toxins of another species can result in poisoning. Especially over time, with constant exposure.
• Parasite and disease transmission: in addition to the usual quarantine precautions, extra time and attention should be taken when introducing amphibians (even those of the same species), many of the potential problem causing organisms that they may be infected with go through dormant stages alternating with population blooms. Stress and changes in diet or environment can prompt growth to lethal levels.

You will note that most of these represent risks, not absolutes. I'm sure that most of us have run into someone keeping a half-dozen different animals in a single tank without any of them dying for a year or two. Not-dying isn't the same as thriving and possible isn't the same as probable, much less advisable.

This specific mix would not be a good one; depending on exactly which species of european spadefoot you've got (do you even know?), they're far more easily stressed and less aggressive feeders... that are also prone to increased toxin production when exposed to negative stimulus. It'd be a race to see if the greens got poisoned before the spadefeet fell over dead from stressors or starvation.

It's also kind of concerning that you didn't mention quarantine.

 

[katie_]

Thank you M_surinamensis, I will not be mixing the spades with my toads.
Its too bad. I would have quarantined them though, thats something I'm a stickler about.

The spades are Pelobates fuscus fuscus and my toads are Bufo viridis.
I would love to have a fully planted viv and incorporate more than one species.
Do you have any advice on possible potential tank mates?
Your knowledge is very useful, thanks for your help.

 

[animeavatar]

I wouldn't mix.

 

[katie_]

I know, you have already stated your opinion.

 

[M_surinamensis]

I would love to have a fully planted viv and incorporate more than one species.
Do you have any advice on possible potential tank mates?

I have an analogy.

You are pretty well acquainted with aquarium systems, if I am remembering correctly. So you have some experience considering the needs and behaviors of different species of animal, in order to predict which ones can be mixed into a single environment. You're also aware of at least a few things that can be done when planning the enclosure and the way the animals are kept that can minimize some of the risks and difficulties.

A multi-species terrarium is very similar, except that there are usually fewer available species to look at mixing and they are more likely to exhibit behaviors that limit their suitability.

So you've got to find animals with; compatible environmental needs, behavioral tendencies that minimize competition or conflict, that will not regard one another as prey, that do not produce significant toxins or irritants. Experiencing true success, such that the animals thrive (rather than just survive) is a difficult prospect in most instances, because there are so many fewer species to choose from, because of tendencies towards predatory and territorial behaviors and because of the limitations imposed by availability.

Quarantine is also especially tricky due to the possibility of typhoid mary scenarios, e.g.- tortoises from different continents carrying infectious organisms that they are resistant to, but which are deadly to other species. Amphibians especially are particularly problematic in this regard and particularly prone to rather rapid deterioration should they become ill. There is often a much shorter window of time for addressing issues as they arise before they cause irreversible damage.

One of the most significant factors in managing to successfully create a multi-species vivarium is going to be your personal knowledge and experience. It is absolutely necessary that you have a wealth of expertise to draw upon in making the selection and monitoring the results. Consequentially, it is very difficult for anyone else to create a list of candidates because nobody else will know exactly which species with which you have that kind of capability.

I could probably find a mix of some tree frogs that I could cause to cohabitate successfully given some time to plan an enclosure that facilitates behavioral compatibility, because I have some experience with them and know some of them very well. I would absolutely botch an attempt to mix denodrobates, because I have comparatively limited experience with them; but Tony (one of the mods here) might be able to put together a thriving community (if he were inclined, which I suspect he probably is not) because he has made much more extensive observations of the group.

It is one of those scenarios where the question, while valid, is usually an indication that the person asking it lacks one of the necessary components to put the answer into practice.

 

[Dimidiata]

Ive seen a few multispecies tanks before just browsing around, one was just 2-3 species of north american tree frog(didn't included the cuban) in a larger viv that seemed to get along.

 

[katie_]

There is a man in town who puts together BEAUTIFUL planted vivs for dart frogs.
Since I do lack a lot of experience with amphibians, I may give him a call. Working on the planted component of the viv is going to be the hardest, but for now, I'll keep my green toads.

Thanks for your help!