red stripe gene

[psypulse]

I've read a lot about this, some say this, some say that.
I'm really confused now, is it recessive or polygenetic?
And what exactly happens if it's poly and you breed a redstripe to a normal?

Cheers

 

[Mel&Keith]

I don't know if everyone will ever agree on this subject and maybe there's no simple answer. We did get some very striped Snow Bell Enigmas from a Bell Enigma to Snow Bell breeding. Neither of the parents were striped but the Snow Bell father was produced by Kelli Hammack and I've heard of other people who had stripes unexpectedly pop up from geckos they'd gotten from her. So maybe there are certain lines that are recessive while others are polygenic.

 

[cassadaga]

I believe it's polygenetic. When we've done redstripe/sunglow crosses, we got a wide range of patterns from banded to red striped. There were probably hypos some where in the background of our red stripes, but I really doubt there were many red stripes in our sunglows heritage.

I think geckos with striped, hypo, jungle, etc traits in their heritage will carry on those genes, even if they're not expressing them. Which might be why they're often confused with recessive traits.

 

[boutiquegecko]

There is a thread on the "big sripe debate" here. But that's for stripes, not red stripes. The only stripes I've worked with were from Kelli and r2 line, those behaved recessive for my outcomes. This year we are working with nieves and I hope to for a few years, so depending on this year, we'll see how the outcomes are with them.
Hmm, Red stripes, maybe Jeremy (raining red stripe), Dan(hot geckos) and Paul (bright albino) could give more input on those lines. They've all been working with them for a few seasons that I know of.

 

[psypulse]

There is a thread on the "big sripe debate" here. But that's for stripes, not red stripes. The only stripes I've worked with were from Kelli and r2 line, those behaved recessive for my outcomes. This year we are working with nieves and I hope to for a few years, so depending on this year, we'll see how the outcomes are with them.
Hmm, Red stripes, maybe Jeremy (raining red stripe), Dan(hot geckos) and Paul (bright albino) could give more input on those lines. They've all been working with them for a few seasons that I know of.

I hope Jeremy, Dan and Paul will input some of their findings here.

I'm really interested in the red stripe genetics but since I read the mixed up outcomes of stripe projects I got really confused. Some say it's recessive, the next says it's polygenetic and others say they're polygenetic but act recessive.
So Im wondering what happens if you breed a redstripe to a non-rs.

So Jeremy, Dan and Paul, would you be so kind to share your experience?

-Jonathan

 

[Jeremy Letkey]

In my humble opinion, the Red Stripe trait is a line bred trait.

If you breed to well defined Red Stripes together, the majority of the offspring will be nice Red Stripes. With a few that are exceptional and a few that are less defined.

With that being said, odds are odd. Nothing is 100% and this is only my opinion.

To add, and address the op's question... It will depend on the quality of the redstripe that is bred to a normal. It will likely produce hypos, jungles, and redstripes of different variations.

 

[psypulse]

In my humble opinion, the Red Stripe trait is a line bred trait.

If you breed to well defined Red Stripes together, the majority of the offspring will be nice Red Stripes. With a few that are exceptional and a few that are less defined.

With that being said, odds are odd. Nothing is 100% and this is only my opinion.

To add, and address the op's question... It will depend on the quality of the redstripe that is bred to a normal. It will likely produce hypos, jungles, and redstripes of different variations.

Thanks for your input Jeremy, have you ever experienced red stripes acting recessive even though it's line bred?

 

[Jeremy Letkey]

I would say that yes, most of the stripe pattern traits act recessive but they are not. In my opinion, they are all polygenic or line bred.

 

[supperl]

Jeremy could you be so nice to explain me polygenetic? Maybe I´m dumb but hell I can´t realy find a definition on it....

 

[GroovyGeckos.com]

I think people are confused, and saying that, because it is polygenically recessive! :main_laugh:

Stripes are about as linebred as Aptors and Raptors. When you breed Aptors together you get Raptors, because a Raptor is the equivalent of a "super" Aptor. That is not the working of a linebred trait, and stripes are no different.

Color is the only linebred trait associated with the Red Stripes IMO. The patterning is what is called a cooperating recessive gene. You will get recessive like results unless breeding to another patterned animal or one that is carrying patterned genetics. When breeding these together you have the chance of producing a "new" type. Reverse Stripes were the "new" type of stripe to pop up out of striped lines. So you might ask, how can stripes produce jungles? Simple answer. They came from Jungles! Reverse Stripes can produce Stripes or Jungles, and Aptors can produce any pattern. Why? They have all of those genetics, because that is where they came from.

Reverse Stripes can produce Patternless Stripes, which is the pattern we see on the Aptor. Aptors as I allready said are "het" for Raptor. There is absolutely not one single recessive gene at work there, it is a group of several, working together. Which is the exact definition of co-recessive BTW. "A group of two or more recessive genes that exist polygenically"

Jungles produced Stripes. Stripes produced Reverse Stripes. Reverse Stripes produced Patternless Stripes, and without them there would be no "Raptor" or Eclipse. This is not something you see from a "linebred" trait, which would more or less only create more like the first. We would not be able to create a totally new genetic pattern or eye mutation!

Thorsten, all it means is many(poly) genes. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polygenic_inheritance

 

[supperl]

Dan I guess I will save me that post in a txt file^^ THX that one is very informative!

 

[psypulse]

I think people are confused, and saying that, because it is polygenically recessive! :main_laugh:

Stripes are about as linebred as Aptors and Raptors. When you breed Aptors together you get Raptors, because a Raptor is the equivalent of a "super" Aptor. That is not the working of a linebred trait, and stripes are no different.

Color is the only linebred trait associated with the Red Stripes IMO. The patterning is what is called a cooperating recessive gene. You will get recessive like results unless breeding to another patterned animal or one that is carrying patterned genetics. When breeding these together you have the chance of producing a "new" type. Reverse Stripes were the "new" type of stripe to pop up out of striped lines. So you might ask, how can stripes produce jungles? Simple answer. They came from Jungles! Reverse Stripes can produce Stripes or Jungles, and Aptors can produce any pattern. Why? They have all of those genetics, because that is where they came from.

Reverse Stripes can produce Patternless Stripes, which is the pattern we see on the Aptor. Aptors as I allready said are "het" for Raptor. There is absolutely not one single recessive gene at work there, it is a group of several, working together. Which is the exact definition of co-recessive BTW. "A group of two or more recessive genes that exist polygenically"

Jungles produced Stripes. Stripes produced Reverse Stripes. Reverse Stripes produced Patternless Stripes, and without them there would be no "Raptor" or Eclipse. This is not something you see from a "linebred" trait, which would more or less only create more like the first. We would not be able to create a totally new genetic pattern or eye mutation!

Thorsten, all it means is many(poly) genes. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polygenic_inheritance

So theoretically speaking you could 'create' your own eclipse gene without any albino influences by breeding patternless stripes together?
Also, everything I've read about stripes applies to the redstripes then? With the only difference being the (line bred) colour?

Dan I guess I will save me that post in a txt file^^ THX that one is very informative!

Exactly what I just did

 

[GroovyGeckos.com]

So theoretically speaking you could 'create' your own eclipse gene without any albino influences by breeding patternless stripes together?

Correct, and it has been done. Both Alberto Cadolini(sp?) and myself "created" what he name Patternless Stripes, around the same time in early 2005. We both bred Red Stripes to Reverse Stripe Albinos, etc, and produced these geckos that looked like non-Albino Aptors. Here is a pic of my two nicest PRS babies(and as sub adults) from that breeding. Geckos from both of our projects were later proven "het Eclipse" in breedings between themselves, and also when bred to Raptors, etc.

The "super form" idea was a theory that came about from a few of us talking and exchanging ideas. Kelli, Alberto, Jeremy, even Ron Tremper, and I, all having seperate conversations, etc. I thought we were maybe on to something with this idea. When I found the definition of cooperating recessive, I could only place this "complex" of genes into that category. Stripes(not all lines apparently) fit into, and are part of the Aptor equation, so I do not see how they would be the only one out of the bunch to be just simply linebred. The "red stripes" themselves(the color) is "linebred" though.

I feel that every "genetic" mutation will fit into a known mode of inheritance. Way too many people agree that they are "not a simple recessive", but yet you do get recessive-type results from creating/breeding hets, etc. So to me, it does not sound like it can be anything else... Just from doing a little reading, and having the type of results I`ve had. I do not want to sound as if I know 100% for certain, as I could be wrong, but that seems to be the best choice, when trying to classify these genetics.

I think that people are maybe saying these genes "only act recessive" because they are expecting the results of a simple recessive instead. If they are not a simple recessive, that would throw out the possibility of them acting as they would "normally". If you see what I`m saying.

 

[psypulse]

Those really are some nice animals

I think I'm starting to understand the stripes, in theory that is.
Theory is one thing, actual breeding another...

Thanks for sharing your experience and clearing up some things, now I even like those stripes more :main_yes:

-Jonathan

 

[Bandit2008]

So alll the aptors are 100% het raptor...right?

 

[supperl]

True Aptors seem to be het Raptor.

Dan how finding the stripe gens? I mean First Jungel than stripe than Reverse S than Red S than Patty S
For example how to get the stripe from the Jungle? Was it just Jungle*Jungle=LUCK?

 

[GroovyGeckos.com]

You are both welcome!

Thorsten, not quite sure on that. I think I just got into Leos(for the second time) around then. I just know that stripes came from jungle lines. I`m only going by some "history lessons" that other breeders were nice enough to give me, when we were all posting on fauna instead, several years ago. Mr T. had once claimed that he "selectively bred his stripes from jungles". I would say it is from Jungle to Jungle, and a lot of luck.

So striped lines went on to produce reverse stripes, but it did not seem very easy to get them, again it took a lot of luck. When I started working with both of those, I bred them together, and out popped stripes, jungles, reverse stripes, and "something new". Until that happened I was led to believe they were linebred or all seperate recessive traits...but. When you mix the two you do not create normal "double hets", so I started looking for other ways to explain it.

We figured out the genetics of the PRS>Eclipse thing by accident, apparently around a year after Ron hatched Raptors and Eclipse from his "Patternless Designer" project. Which is only slightly funny, but I`ll have a chuckle anyway.:main_laugh: