Bug eyed snakes and culling

[M_surinamensis]

i agree with culling genetic or not i do not want to take the chance of passing on any possible negative trait. i will euthanize any kink tails, weak animals etc.

now i know the enigma debate will come into this and i work with them. they are what they are sure in severe cases putting them down is the best thing. i know seamus will disagree and say all of them should be put down. i do not care.

I have no clue what the enigma debate is. I am woefully behind the times when it comes to the leopard gecko morph market. If they've got some issue that can manifest to varying degrees (like the wobbling thing in spider balls), then yeah- I'd say they should all be put down. And no, you won't care.

 

[robin]

I have no clue what the enigma debate is. I am woefully behind the times when it comes to the leopard gecko morph market. If they've got some issue that can manifest to varying degrees (like the wobbling thing in spider balls), then yeah- I'd say they should all be put down. And no, you won't care.

they tend to have neurological problem sorta like the wobbling thing in spider balls yes, the will also circle, head tild and some other things.

 

[M_surinamensis]

I assume you're working specifically to minimize or separate it? Is the method of transmission and expression understood?

 

[Tony C]

I assume you're working specifically to minimize or separate it? Is the method of transmission and expression understood?

The severity of symptoms seems to be random, an asymptomatic parent can produce severely effected babies and vice versa. Neither outcrossing nor enigma to enigma crosses seem to have any effect on the outcome. From what I understand it is very much like spider balls, but I'm not a python guy so I could be wrong.

 

[M_surinamensis]

Interesting.

For those of you other than Robin and Tony (who I am pretty sure know this stuff already), there are- very very broadly, three ways that traits are connected to one another once they manifest in tandem in this fashion.

The first, and worst, is when one of them directly causes the other and they are genetically identical, a single trait. A hypothetical example would be a vitamin uptake deficiency that changed the ability of the animal to produce pigment. The color or pattern is directly caused by the negative trait and the two are immutably linked together.

Some of them can be present on the same allele, genetically linked in each individual animal but potentially something that can be separated if the stock is worked with long enough and the ensuing generations are all kept controlled and contained long enough to accurately map the genetics of some of the early stock. Much more difficult to do, especially if there's ambiguity about carrier animals which do not themselves manifest the problem. It can be difficult bordering on impossible to work through such projects and verify clean stock when the negative trait is something other than a simple recessive that manifests as an absolute.

They can also be indirectly associated. This is especially true of many captive morphs that have a known tendency towards a second genetic abnormality. Most morphs are established using one, or a very small number, of source animals which are discovered and collected manifesting the unusual pigmentation. That animal is then bred as intensely as it can be in order to prove out the trait and to produce a greater quantity of stock possessing those genes. Because of the intense line breeding that occurs during the period of time that a morph is being established, any other traits which are present in that source animal or the initial group that is is bred to will also be similarly reinforced and similarly common in all the resulting offspring. This is the easiest of the associated nastiness to breed out, since it can be established in as few as three or four generations of outcrossing and selective, contained breeding when stock has been purged of the negative trait (depending on the transmission and expression of the negative of course).

Personally I just cull them all and write off the color trait as a lost cause, but there are a few people- qualified, intelligent, extremely experienced and knowledgeable people- who have taken the time and put in the effort to map out the transmission of such negative traits and establish clean stock of the desired color or pattern. Of course, that just reinforces the idea that culling should occur- to use the example that started this discussion, why on earth would anyone own or propagate bug eyed leucistic texas rat snakes when they can obtain the same color trait without the eye deformity?

 

[Gregg M]

Seamus,
With the Enigma it seems that the mutant gene that causes the pattern and color mutation also causes the spinning, head tilting, and balance issues... It is not able to be separated or bred out no matter how many times it is outcrossed... The "disorder" is not present in enigma siblings... Some Enigmas are born spinning while others do not show any signs until later on... Every Enigma shows some degree of this "disorder" sometimes it progresses and sometimes it does not get any worse... Some think the disorder is brought on by outside stresses but I have my doubts... It is just something that can not be avoided...

Personally, I chose not to work with them after realizing this and have culled all Enigmas I have produced...