The "ethics" of breeding

preacherman

Gecko Genetics
Messages
1,106
Location
Wisconsin
I’d like to address the recent comments that have been made regarding the ethics involved in breeding and selling leopard geckos.

First of all, I have noticed that the word “marketing” has become a dirty word on this forum. It seems that it is only being used with a negative connotation attached to it, as if marketing requires a compromise of one’s ethical integrity .
It is no secret that the leopard gecko market is a very competitive one. More and more people are producing leopard geckos each year, and subsequently the market becomes more and more saturated. In order to increase your chance of selling your animals for a profit, it becomes necessary to market yourself, your business, and your animals. All breeders market. We may not all do it in the same manner, but we all do it. Websites, business cards, online advertising, attending reptile expos, coining creative names for morphs, and even showing pictures of your offspring on these forums are all types of marketing. If a seller resorts to dishonesty in an attempt to sell his or her animals, that is unethical. However, MARKETING IS NOT UNETHICAL. In the end, our customers will hold us responsible for the quality of our animals and our integrity as a seller.

Along with this, it is perfectly okay to make a profit from the animals that you produce. I frequently see comments like “I don’t really want to make any money from breeding, I just hope to make enough to pay for my feeders”, as if there is a need to apologize for profiting from your breeding efforts. There is nothing wrong with breeding for fun, but there is also nothing wrong with breeding for profit. Breeding leopard geckos is a labor intensive occupation. Many of us maintain colonies capable of producing several hundred offspring each season. Working with a colony of that size takes a great deal of work. I personally spend an average of 4 hours a day working with my animals in the winter, and 6-8 hours a day during the breeding season. An average day consists of cleaning tubs, feeding, checking individual females for ovulation, keeping tabs of breeding pairs, checking lay boxes for eggs, placing eggs in the incubator, placing new hatchlings in their tubs, and feeding and maintaining feeder insects. Add to this the amount of time required to maintain a website, compose advertisements, and answer phone calls and e-mails, and you can begin to see the amount of work that goes into becoming a successful breeder. This is on top of the hours that I spend focusing on my full-time “job”. Anyone can produce leopard geckos. To consistently produce beautiful, healthy, well-tempered offspring takes an incredible amount of dedication, a strong work ethic, and a genuine love for the animals. If you are able to make a profit from the time that you have dedicated to producing healthy animals, there is nothing to be ashamed of. THERE IS NOTHING UNETHICAL ABOUT SELLING THE ANIMALS THAT YOU HAVE PRODUCED FOR A PROFIT.

Whether you are a hobbyist with only a few geckos, a small breeder who barely breaks even, or a professional breeder that depends on an income from your business, we all choose to participate in this forum for one very simple reason: we love leopard geckos. I hope that the negative inferences that have frequently been made concerning the questionable ethics of those who breed for a profit will cease.

We are very fortunate to have this “community” of fellow enthusiasts to share information with. The end result of that sharing of information should be the advancement of our understanding in regards to keeping and breeding these amazing animals.

If you have something CONSTRUCTIVE and POSITIVE to add to this discussion, please do. If not, your comments will fall on deaf ears.

“…whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things.” (Philippians 4:8
 

PrototypeGeckos

New Member
Messages
1,354
Location
McDonough, Ga
Very well said Jason, there is nothing more that I can personally add to that because you stated it perfectly. I personally love Leopard Geckos, it is why I do what I do, but I do not make enough money to personally work in the negative, just do have a hobby I enjoy. I have a little girl I am working to put through private school, and as much as I love my Leos and breeding Leos, I can't jeopardize that education to have my fun. I want to make a profit, will not feel bad for making a FAIR profit, and will "market" to do so. Marketing is a necessary action to accomplish that, so there is no negative connotation of that term that I can possibly think of, as long as you market honestly. That is one thing I love about this community, we are honest people, everyone I have dealt with have been honest people, and you Jason being one of the best!! Lets support each other and not bring each other down, and learn as much as possible along the way!!!
 

malt_geckos

Don't Say It's Impossible
Messages
3,971
Location
Gainesville, Fl
Jason-

Thank you for saying this. It is very hard to maintain our small colony of 33...can't imagine your colony. But like you said there is nothing wrong with making some money for raising, breeding, and taking care of the geckos. We were on a forum awhile ago and if you said anything about breeding they would jump down your throat, tell you it was cruel, and tell you you had no business contributing to the ammount of leopard geckos that needed to be rescued...

Anyway, Thanks for saying that. It needed to be said. As for Ethics- you will see unethical people in every market...unfortunately it really hurts all of us who love our animals to see unethical people in our market. It really punches our buttons.

I am glad to have you as a fellow gecko marketer. ;)
 

MSMD

Lake Effect Leos
Messages
1,821
Location
Traverse City, MI
Well said, Jason! I agree that there is no shame in making a profit for those that do it honestly. In fact, good for anyone that can honestly make a profit doing something they love! I, myself, as a first year breeder, do not EXPECT to make a profit, as I realize the number of breeders there are out there. If at some point I am able to do more than just offset the costs of my addiction, that would be awesome! I am just not willing to sacrifice care or compassion to do it. ;)

I'm glad someone came forward and added a little clarification to this issue (it seems there have been a lot of ethics issues popping up lately). There are a lot of respectable, wonderful, and helpful breeders in this community that make a profit doing this, but love and care for their animals as well.
 
P

PacHerp

Guest
miamimike said:
Well said buddy!.....and I feel...NEEDED to be said...thanks.

Thank You, Thank You, Thank You! I completely agree that there is absolutely nothing wrong with ethical marketing. sheesh... it is what I do for a living! :main_yes:

Thank you for taking the time to put so much thought into your post, and for bringing this to light... :)
 

Golden Gate Geckos

Mean Old Gecko Lady
Messages
12,730
Location
SF Bay Area
GREAT thread topic, Jason! I breed leopard geckos for many reasons, and if I didn't make a profit I probably wouldn't be doing it, at least on the scale that I do. If I did it 'purely' for the love of the animals, I would simply give my geckos away. I wouldn't need to spend all the time and money (did I say money?) on my website, placing ads, wearing myself out vending at shows, buying and keeping feeders, cleaning, answering calls and emails, keeping records, and all the countless other responsibilities involved in running a business. Yes, it is a business!

I have said this before... there will always be people who do this strictly for profit, others that love the challenge of the genetics aspect of breeding geckos, others simply because they just love the geckos. In my opinion, the BEST breeders in this business are the ones that can balance all the aspects!

I think the ONLY thing that make Leopard Gecko breeding unethical would be to be dishonest, and to lose regard for the well-being of the geckos and the customers. If the animals and people suffered at the cost of making a large sum of money, that is where I would draw the line.
 

dprince

Mod Squad Member
Messages
4,270
Location
California
Can't add any more to what has been said.........thanks for bringing this up in such a respectful, well thought out way. :main_thumbsup:
 

Airilith

New Member
Messages
393
Wow! Beautifully stated.

And for anyone who thinks that marketing in general is unethical ... take a small business class. You'll soon think otherwise. :)
 

acpart

Geck-cessories
Staff member
Messages
15,156
Location
Somerville, MA
I think this is an important and well stated point. One thing that happens sometimes is that we get seduced into using a kind of "shorthand" to talk about certain things which then becomes misleading. One example of this is "big box pet stores" which automatically condemns all large pet stores as places that don't care about their animals. I think some of the negative comments here in the past about "marketing" and "profit" are reactions to people and institutions we know of and that we've discussed who engage in these activities to the detriment of their animals' health. It's good to refocus and to remember that these activities don't have to be negative in and of themselves.

Aliza
 

Gecko Ranch

New Member
Messages
456
Location
In the sticks near Woodland, CA
Thank you for saying what you did Jason! I spend the bulk of my time trying to figure out what is best for the customers, the geckos, and how to get them together in an ethical manner that benefits both. I have a mission statement on the home page of my website to this end. This is an honest buck as long as we follow guidelines as you participating on this thread have stated.

I started keeping lizards when folks were largely sleazy in this business back in the 70s. I went to a county fair in Los Angeles and wore an anole pinned to my shirt with a red string. No care sheet came along nor was intended to. I went to my local pet shops and got Western Fence lizards taken from the fields, full of mites. What did they eat I asked? Lettuce! I could go on and on. I was a child in those days and I have since made a vow that no child would suffer like I did in seeing their pets die needlessly. These situations were largely comprised of profit and disposability of herps.

Next were the reptile shows I did in the early 90s when I started Gecko Ranch. People practically spit on me for charging sales tax! People seemed to have trouble at times understanding I was a legitmate business and we were in the USA, not Mexico doing a barter for goods! I think this was a remnant of swap meet or county fair situations.

Back then and nowadays I still struggle occasionally with customers to get them buy the proper supplements/books/equipment necessary to take care of the geckos they want to buy from me. It is less and less though, as I make my website easier for them to use and understand what is necessary for them to be successful with the geckos. Marketing is a very, very good thing done for the right reasons indeed!:main_yes:

We have come so far! :main_thumbsup: Thanks to networking with other breeders and hobbyists through reptile symposia and forums like this, we can all help our business/hobby evolve for the better. :D

Geckos are close to, if they are not already, attaining the status of mainstream pets and are enjoyed by boys and girls, and women and men of all ages and walks of life. Our laws are starting to catch up, here in California every exotic sold must have a care sheet that goes with it.

The future's so bright I gotta wear shades! :main_cool3:
 

preacherman

Gecko Genetics
Messages
1,106
Location
Wisconsin
Julie, thank you so much for your thoughts. You have been a fantastic example for the gecko community, and I appreciate the work that you've done.
Thanks to everyone else for the great comments, as well.
 

Gregg M

Registered Member
Messages
3,055
Location
The Rotten Apple NYC
The worh "ethics" is thrown around quite loosely and it is obvious that some do not know the true meaning of the word...
I mean are we talking ethics from a buisiness stand point, a captive husbandry stand point, a consumers stand point, or a breeders stand point...
The simple fact that we keep animals in cages and racks can be considered unethical to some folks...
What it boils down to is that most of the time ethics are more of an opinion... Although sometimes the general consensus, what is perfectly fine for one can be unethical to another...
People want to make money selling leos... This is the fact... There is NOTHING wrong with this... It is the way the world works... If you do not make money, you starve...
If someone can make money on something they love, more power to them...
The only thing that bugs me is when people talk about how much hard work it is to keep, breed, and sell leopard geckos... LOL
It is one of the easiest reptiles to keep, breed, and sell... It is not hard work ESPECIALLY if you really love these animals... To me, taking care of the hundreds of animals I keep is relaxing and pleasurable... I dont see where the work is in all this... The animals do everything for you... All you need to do is keep them clean, fed, supplemented, healthy, and throw eggs in an incubator... The cost of keeping even large colonies of leos is minimal... Breeding you own insects is a big help as well...
This is not hard work, its a hobby where money can be made... And ther is nothing wrong with that!!!
 
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preacherman

Gecko Genetics
Messages
1,106
Location
Wisconsin
"The only thing that bugs me is when people talk about how much hard work it is to keep, breed, and sell leopard geckos... LOL"

You know what really bugs me? When people make insulting comments and then add "LOL" to the end of it.
Breeding leos is as hard as you want to make it. Is it difficult in terms of "hard labor"? No. It's certainly not as difficult as my wife's full time job, or mine, for that matter. Some of us spend a great deal of time taking care of our animals. Mine do not take care of themselves. When you add the time it takes to care for your colony on top of the hours spent focusing on a full time job, then a "hobby" can quickly become "work". And it is work that deserves compensation.
I do agree that a geniune love for the animals makes the work very enjoyable. This is definately a labor of love. I appreciate that you enjoy working with your animals, Greg, all of us do. That doesn't take away from the fact that it takes a great deal of work to be a successful breeder.
Sorry if this seems brash, but I feel very strongly about this.
 
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