Why???

[geckos9]

Why do breeders still breed enigmas?? they can have a life threatening medical issue. imo its not fair. Is it just me or shouldnt they stop breeding them? I don't understand... ?? :main_huh:

srry if this isn;t allowed im just confused

 

[pmkent1]

I know there are a lot of people who believe it can be outcrossed. I dont know enough about it to have an opinion one way or the other. If it can be outcrossed I think thats a wonderful thing. Enigmas can produce some of the most beautiful morphs. If it cant then I agree that it shouldnt be repoduced. Knowingly breeding an animal with a clear mental/physical defect is unethical (IMO) if it clearly affects the life of the animal negatively.

That said, I cant blame anyone for wanting to try and breed those traits out (so long as thats what theyre doing). If your doing it just because you like the look I would have a problem with that.

 

[bella95]

I know there are a lot of people who believe it can be outcrossed. I dont know enough about it to have an opinion one way or the other. If it can be outcrossed I think thats a wonderful thing. Enigmas can produce some of the most beautiful morphs. If it cant then I agree that it shouldnt be repoduced. Knowingly breeding an animal with a clear mental/physical defect is unethical (IMO) if it clearly affects the life of the animal negatively.

That said, I cant blame anyone for wanting to try and breed those traits out (so long as thats what theyre doing). If your doing it just because you like the look I would have a problem with that.

I agree. +1.

 

[LeoTyreal]

I can see some valid points here, unethical? that's kind of a gray area IMO. yes it can be a very debilitating genetic abnormality. but there are varying degrees of it and at the same time can also be non existent. I've seen it as little as slight side step up to full circles and star gazing. Also seen it to the point of having to be hand fed since they lack the ability to catch their own food. I think it kind of falls on to ability and attentiveness of the breeder and the owner. for the breeder I'm sure over time it can be crossed out, but its their willingness to take the time to do so, and if not, simply on the fact of the beauty the enigmas have, then it should be on them to be able to properly care for all degrees of the enigma syndrome. If they are selling them, they should fully warn and give tips and advice of how to care for one that shows symptoms. I was fortunate as a new buyer years ago to get an enigma that didn't show these things and has lived and is living a full healthy life. able to hunt his own food and is going strong. but it should be something, or at least i would do, that could be compared to salt water fish with varying degrees of care from beginner to expert care for something like this. since i have seen the worst of enigma and still living for years. this all opinion though, but like any other the keeper is what i feel would be the defining factor of what quality of life an enigma would have.
just my 2 cents

 

[Embrace Calamity]

I personally don't think they should ever be bred. Who cares if it can be bred out? Is that really worth the suffering of the failed attempts?

I can see some valid points here, unethical? that's kind of a gray area IMO. yes it can be a very debilitating genetic abnormality. but there are varying degrees of it and at the same time can also be non existent. I've seen it as little as slight side step up to full circles and star gazing. Also seen it to the point of having to be hand fed since they lack the ability to catch their own food. I think it kind of falls on to ability and attentiveness of the breeder and the owner. for the breeder I'm sure over time it can be crossed out, but its their willingness to take the time to do so, and if not, simply on the fact of the beauty the enigmas have, then it should be on them to be able to properly care for all degrees of the enigma syndrome. If they are selling them, they should fully warn and give tips and advice of how to care for one that shows symptoms. I was fortunate as a new buyer years ago to get an enigma that didn't show these things and has lived and is living a full healthy life. able to hunt his own food and is going strong. but it should be something, or at least i would do, that could be compared to salt water fish with varying degrees of care from beginner to expert care for something like this. since i have seen the worst of enigma and still living for years. this all opinion though, but like any other the keeper is what i feel would be the defining factor of what quality of life an enigma would have.
just my 2 cents

I like how you're focusing on the care that the owner/breeder needs to provide as opposed to the suffering of the reptile. How that's not the most important thing to everyone who claims to love reptiles is beyond me. But, eh, people are greedy, and it's easy to dismiss suffering that can't be communicated to people as blatantly as some need it to be. Empathy isn't something everyone is good at.

~Maggot

 

[SC Geckos]

I dont work with or own any, but I know of a few breeders that have enigmas that show no issues what so ever.
I do agree that if a gecko shows ANY signs of issues (physical or neurologic) regardless of genetics it should never be used to breed. Period.

 

[ImNotYogi]

I agree. Personally I stopped looking at breeders who deal with enigmas. Admittedly I don't know a lot about genetics so it'd be appreciated if someone can explain how a seemingly hereditary disease can be out-crossed. I don't see how something can be bred out if all enigmas are carrying the gene for ES and numerous breeders have stated that some parents showed no signs but the offspring did. So the status of the parent doesn't seem to have any effect on the health of the offspring, in that sense. It basically looks like a crap shoot to if a gecko will become ill and the severity of it. I'm starting to think breeders just want to make themselves feel better for breeding them by saying they only breed the "healthy" ones.
It's just genetics are complicated and how much do people who talk about out-crossing know about them? Beyond what makes a certain morph.

 

[Embrace Calamity]

I dont work with or own any, but I know of a few breeders that have enigmas that show no issues what so ever.
I do agree that if a gecko shows ANY signs of issues (physical or neurologic) regardless of genetics it should never be used to breed. Period.

Except the ones that don't can still produce very sick offspring, so that really doesn't make any difference.

I agree. Personally I stopped looking at breeders who deal with enigmas.

Same. I wouldn't mind having a fancy morph someday, but I wouldn't ever buy from a breeder who breeds enigmas.

~Maggot

 

[SC Geckos]

Except the ones that don't can still produce very sick offspring, so that really doesn't make any difference.

Is this your opinion or a fact? I cant say that because I dont know for sure.

 

[Embrace Calamity]

Is this your opinion or a fact? I cant say that because I dont know for sure.

I'm pretty certain, but it's possible I'm wrong (though the person before me just said the same thing). Let me see if I can find something on it. Though if that weren't the case, I'm pretty sure the "attempts" to breed it out wouldn't just be attempts anymore. It would have been successful.

~Maggot

 

[SC Geckos]

I'm pretty certain, but it's possible I'm wrong (though the person before me just said the same thing). Let me see if I can find something on it. Though if that weren't the case, I'm pretty sure the "attempts" to breed it out wouldn't just be attempts anymore. It would have been successful.

~Maggot

Im sure its like proving out anything else... It can take several breeding seasons to prove or disprove, not jus one pairing or one clutch.

 

[katie_]

Unfortunatly, the theory of 'dont breed it because their could be potential problems' could happen with any gecko, or any animal for that matter.

Should be stop breeding certain breeds of dogs because they have different breed related health problems? I think people who love those breeds would say no.

 

[Embrace Calamity]

Im sure its like proving out anything else... It can take several breeding seasons to prove or disprove, not jus one pairing or one clutch.

It's been around for years. Plenty long enough to breed several generations. If it were as easy as just not breeding ones who showed symptoms, it wouldn't be an issue. Here's a post I found on the forum:

You are 100% correct on that one. Whether or not parents exhibit signs of the syndrome doesn't seem to make it 100% sure that you will or will not get offspring that have the syndrome.

Furthermore, symptoms can arise anytime, so you can't know that a gecko is truly symptom-free or not. It just is symptom-free at the moment. I can't attest to whether this is true or not, but here's a post from breeders:

There are certain "flaws" with the enigma gene. It really is a neurological disorder which effects ALL enigmas, but some more obvious and to a higher degree than others. The enigma symptoms are typically spinning (goes in circles), head tilting (is what it sounds like), star gazing (blank stare - typically looking up), and wobble walking (similar to a Chameleon walking, just not coordinated). There are other symptoms which may be noticed such as failure to effectively hunt prey and shedding issues, but the first 4 are the typical symptoms people are talking about.

Unfortunatly, the theory of 'dont breed it because their could be potential problems' could happen with any gecko, or any animal for that matter.

Should be stop breeding certain breeds of dogs because they have different breed related health problems? I think people who love those breeds would say no.

There are several serious breed-specific diseases in, for example, Quarter Horses, and the registry doesn't allow horses with certain conditions to even be registered, let alone bred. But it's easier to empathise with a horse than with a gecko, isn't it? There's a huge difference between some dogs of a breed having some hip problems when they get older and an overwhelming number of enigmas with symptoms that can prevent them from walking, eating, shedding, and just living a normal life. You can't compare apples and oranges.

~Maggot

 

[pmkent1]

Unfortunatly, the theory of 'dont breed it because their could be potential problems' could happen with any gecko, or any animal for that matter.

Should be stop breeding certain breeds of dogs because they have different breed related health problems? I think people who love those breeds would say no.

The only issue there is not "could be potential problems" more than there WILL be problems. The only issue being to what degree in which offspring.

And as a short answer to the dog comparison, yes. If a certain breed of dog cant be produced without perpetuating a serious defect (note the word serious) then it should be bred at all. BUT, if the problem can be bred out of it then theres no issue IMO.

 

[SC Geckos]

It's been around for years. Plenty long enough to breed several generations. If it were as easy as just not breeding ones who showed symptoms, it wouldn't be an issue.

Since 2006 but that doesn't mean people have been trying to selectivly breed the animals that show no signs of issues since then. Its also funny how matter of fact you are considering you have no first hand experience with the morph or breeding in general from what I gather.
I don't no the answer or do I claim to and my comments reflect this.
This comment you quoted:
Originally Posted by Enigmatic_Reptiles
There are certain "flaws" with the enigma gene. It really is a neurological disorder which effects ALL enigmas, but some more obvious and to a higher degree than others. The enigma symptoms are typically spinning (goes in circles), head tilting (is what it sounds like), star gazing (blank stare - typically looking up), and wobble walking (similar to a Chameleon walking, just not coordinated). There are other symptoms which may be noticed such as failure to effectively hunt prey and shedding issues, but the first 4 are the typical symptoms people are talking about.

Is from a good breeder with first hand experience so I would guess that this morph has similar issues to a spider BP. But when the spider is crossed with other morphs the babies lose most, if not all of the issues. I don't think the enigma is going anywhere so I guess only time will tell what can or can't be "fixed".
One other thing I wonder about is.... If the enigma has so many issues as stated above how are they able to breed? Obviously it doesnt have an issue in that department as there are plenty out there. It just seems odd.

 

[pmkent1]

One other thing I wonder about is.... If the enigma has so many issues as stated above how are they able to breed? Obviously it doesnt have an issue in that department as there are plenty out there. It just seems odd.

I would imagine its the ones showing less of the syndrome that are the ones doing the breeding.

 

[ImNotYogi]

Unfortunatly, the theory of 'dont breed it because their could be potential problems' could happen with any gecko, or any animal for that matter.

Should be stop breeding certain breeds of dogs because they have different breed related health problems? I think people who love those breeds would say no.

Every animal is prone to some sort of health defect. It's more a question of should they be bred if something can *severely* effect an overwhelming number of them. Certain dog breeds are more prone to issues as they age but there's also more knowledge of preventative measures and treatments available. The best advice I've ever seen given to an enigma owner is to "reduce stress."

 

[ImNotYogi]

I don't think the enigma is going anywhere so I guess only time will tell what can or can't be "fixed".

This is why I ask about genetics when enigmas are mentioned. As far as everyone seems to know it's a genetic disorder that all enigmas are at risk at developing. A few people have said on this forum that their offspring to asymptomatic parents have shown signs. I don't see how people can be so convinced that this issue can be out-crossed if it seems to be hereditary.

 

[athdaraxen]

Just a thought on comparing this to dogs...

Would you breed a dog that had something similar to ES?

I don't think I would since there is a chance the problem would be really bad and be an issue for the dog to live a normal life.

People continue to breed things like pugs who have breathing issues because with some extra care its not an issue. A gecko with severe ES can't really be compared to something like that. Plus in most cases with issues with dogs its as stated above, the issues they have can usually be treated. ES doesn't really seem treatable (mind you I'm new to Geckos and have only seen videos of ES geckos.). From what I can see its just helping them live as comfortably as possible.

But that's just what I think on the whole issue.
*runs off*

Edit: I just want to say I don't know much anything about the genetics of geckos or dogs. I'm basing this off that ES can't be bred out. I am aware that dog traits can be bred in or out I most cases though. This is based off of what I've read and seen on these forums and Internet research.

Sent from my Samsung Captivate using Tapatalk 2.

 

[katie_]

Just a thought on comparing this to dogs...

Would you breed a dog that had something similar to ES?

I don't think I would since there is a chance the problem would be really bad and be an issue for the dog to live a normal life.

People continue to breed things like pugs who have breathing issues because with some extra care its not an issue. A gecko with severe ES can't really be compared to something like that. Plus in most cases with issues with dogs its as stated above, the issues they have can usually be treated. ES doesn't really seem treatable (mind you I'm new to Geckos and have only seen videos of ES geckos.). From what I can see its just helping them live as comfortably as possible.

But that's just what I think on the whole issue.
*runs off*

Edit: I just want to say I don't know much anything about the genetics of geckos or dogs. I'm basing this off that ES can't be bred out. I am aware that dog traits can be bred in or out I most cases though. This is based off of what I've read and seen on these forums and Internet research.

Sent from my Samsung Captivate using Tapatalk 2.

Sure it can.
Some bulldogs stop breathing in the heat. Its a risk to any brachycephalic dog. Ive witnessed many surgerys where the dogs nostrils need to be made wider. Its disgusting.
Some enigmas develop the syndrom. Both can be environmental. Both can live long normal lives. People still breed bulldogs.
I myself have yet to see an enigma with symptoms, in person. Have you?
I have one and shes perfectly normal. Will I breed her? I dont know yet. But its still MY decision.
I am neither pro breeding or anti breeding, I'm trying to give you some insite on why it will never change.