Who is responsible for them!

[justindh1]

So I have been thinking about the enigmas and their problems. They came about in 2006 and were starting to be sold in 2007. Before ya knew it they were as abundant as flies on dog crap.

Does any wonder why the breeders sold this morph without any testing done on them? Do you think that the breeders that originally sold these geckos were in it for the money and wasn't worried about the problems associated with this gecko and the life these geckos would be living?

Has anyone even tried to figure out who is responsible for not making this morphs genetics stong before selling them for their profit? Tell me what genetic morph that hasn't been breed and then tested to make sure that they have strong genetics and a good breeding stock.

I know that this may be seen as being a attack to some people but things need to be figured out to see where some people actually stand on ethics.

Too many people in the beginning made 10's of thousands of dollars on this misfortunate gecko and not caring about its problems only about the money. Does anyone think that this is a disregaurd of ethics? Did these breeders not care about strong genetics? What do you think was on their mind while selling them, the money or the gecko?

Its not hard to see if you think about it and look past the beauty of this gecko and wonder what would of happened if they would of held the release of this gecko another year or two. What if the original stock was tested and became genetically strong?

People need to actually think about eithics and where they stand on the topic. Too many people are letting things slide and not wondering who is responsible for this problem.

Yes things need to be done with this morph and they are being done but its too little too late. This prices are down and now finally people are worried about this effects of this morph because there not going for there original amount. You do your own thinking and stand where you want to. Use you brain and think about it and wonder what could of been.

 

[mynewturtle]

Mark Bell origanally developed the enigma then gave select animals to Kelli Hammock to sell/test I belive. I belive in the genetics forum this has been disussed a lot, try searching there.

Honestly Mark and Kim Bell produce SO many leopard geckos I don't think they have any time to do additional tests.

 

[justindh1]

Topics on the problems have been discussed but not abbout the ethics part.

Not having time to do test is not a excuse to just pass them on. To me thats just lazyness and not caring about the health of that animal. If someone doesn't have time to do whats right then don't do anything at all.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

People need to actually think about eithics and where they stand on the topic. Too many people are letting things slide and not wondering who is responsible for this problem.

This subject is like beating a dead horse. It's been discussed, debated, argued, and even fought about for over 4 years since Reptile Industries (Mark Bell) introduced the Enigma.

Why does there have to be a blame? Why does anybody need to be responsible? The Enigma is here now, and people have a choice whether to work with them or not, and only the people who keep them can make their own decision on whether to breed them. Simple.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

Not having time to do test is not a excuse to just pass them on. To me thats just lazyness and not caring about the health of that animal. If someone doesn't have time to do whats right then don't do anything at all.

Laziness? I think not. Call around some labs and see how much it would cost to perform a study, and most will tell you without a grant it would cost in the neighborhood of $60-200K. If those of you that are complaining about why these geckos haven't been tested can pull that kind of money out of your butt, then do it or shut up.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

For those interested, here is a link to a post I made over on GU that may explain a little more: http://www.geckosunlimited.com/community/221937-post21.html

 

[justindh1]

Because the people who introduce the enigmas obviously wern't worried about ethics. If they were they wouldn't of sold them so quick. They would of done test early and not later. They would of breed them to be genetically strong. They should of done this BFORE and not AFTER the money.

Why not find whos to blame? Why not figure out who isn't really worried about ethics? Why not? Is it because we don't want to call out people that might get pissed at us? Is it because the breeding business is so linked together thats its kind of a one big company? Is everyone afraid to find out where people really stand and have them explain why they did what they did? Be a individual and say what you want to and be your own person. Yes people have to stick together but theres more to it then that.

Everyone defends the breeders but what about the animals that have to live like this. The enigma obviously can't say anything so it is up to us to.

Speculation is spectulation and nothing is known for sure yet about the test. Only a limited amount of test have been done. Not enought for someone to say that they are right 100 percent. So for now moslty everything is unknown. You can't say you know whats going on when test havn't even been completed all the way.

heres the whole thread from geckosunlimited:
http://www.geckosunlimited.com/community/leopard-geckos-other-eublepharis/37502-what-enigma.html

 

[Whitey]

As an animal lover I have to agree with Justin on this one... just stating "that it is done and over with, deal with it" is the wrong attitude to take. People should care where their geckos came from and what is wrong with them (genetically) and why. Its part of the gecko owning experience. Of course my outlook differs a lot from say a breeders outlook. I'm sure that breeders care about their geckos, but nothing like a "regular" owner does (excluding the breeders 1st gecko, or his/her favorites).

Asking "why does anyone have to take the blame? or be held responsible?" well that's just ignorant. That's like saying I can do whatever I want because no repercussions will happen to me. The blame/responsibility has to be put somewhere or on someone to make sure that people in the future don't do this again. Without the blame/responsibility, future breeders can go about making "beautiful" geckos without testing and turn out possibly worse geckos than the enigma.

And yes Justin is right... and if it is not laziness, then it is piss poor planning on the breeders part. As a breeder you should be able to take on the responsibility that you asked for/acquired and if you cannot/do not have the time to test a new morph then maybe they need to slow down the procreation of their geckos. It all falls underneath responsibility.

 

[justindh1]

Thats want i want! I want people to open there eyes a little more and investigate it for themselves. See where you stand and see where others really stand. Its not an attack its just a problem that is long over due for solving.

 

[Lenor]

Well, it was only a matter of time before we had a morph with problems. How long have leos been bred in captivity, and look how many morphs there are already. We all know (or should know) how many problems there are in pedigree dogs and cats with all the inbreeding and breeding for just one or two particular characteristics, so reptiles are bound to suffer the same fate. Not saying that all geckos will suffer, or that all breeders are bad, but if we're going to take an animals genetics to extremes, sometimes it won't all go to plan

 

[Next Level Geckos]

Justin, Let me ask you this. would you have $60-200K to spend on testing? simple yes or no answer. JUST YES OR NO. no explanation please.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

Asking "why does anyone have to take the blame? or be held responsible?" well that's just ignorant.

Ignorant? You think I'm ignorant? LOL!!!!

 

[justindh1]

If i originally started the line then yes i would. If i had a investment in the morph then yes i would. The money should of been spent in the very beginning not 4 years later after everyone has spent their hard earned money. The breeders made alot of moeny on this morph so its their responsibilty to take care of the problem they started.

She didn't say your ignorant, she said your way of thinking that no one should be held responsible was ignorant. Theres a big difference!

 

[boutiquegecko]

Justin, we do have an ethics forum and the enigma has been discussed there a lot. Also, it is not the first morph with issues. Super snows at first were very thin and hard to put weight on. I think some still might be? There are breeders outcrossing in to both the enigma and ss's. There are a lot of combos out there. Who knows when the next combo will prove either something wrong with it, or some one discovers a lethal gene. It is up to those who have those morphs to decide to breed them or not.

 

[justindh1]

Theres a big difference between tiny and underweight from circling and twitching. I know that morphs have problems but they usually are fixed before release. Why wern't the enigmas? Does nobody care that they were pushed out not caring about their problems?

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

I am moving this thread over to the Ethics Forum.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

Justin, do you even HAVE and Enigma?

 

[KelliH]

Hi Justin,

1. Do you or have you ever owned an Enigma?

2. Do you breed leopard geckos and if so, for how long?

3. Who told you that leopard gecko morphs are "fixed" before they are released? What specific morphs were you referring to?

Thank you.

 

[Riyo]

I'm just asking this because I really do not know...but how many morphs were actually test bred and genetically strengthened (paraphrasing Justin) for years before being released? What morphs, if so, were they?

 

[KelliH]

Justin - one more question: Are you aware that there is a "Search" function here and did you try searching for this topic before making your post? There has been a whole lot of discussion about these same issues, so I was just wondering.