Who is responsible for them!

[KelliH]

I'm just asking this because I really do not know...but how many morphs were actually test bred and genetically strengthened (paraphrasing Justin) for years before being released? What morphs, if so, were they?

It's a good question, and the answer would be about zero.

 

[justindh1]

No I don't and I don't need one to know that it has problems. I don't own one yet because i am waiting for the test results and out-crossing to hopefully show some promising results. Test have been done but they only show little data. You can't say for sure on a little data. Do i have to own one to figure out why someone released them early? Does all the post, threads, reports, blogs and everything else give me a good idea of whats going on, yes! Have i talk to breeders that breed them, yes! So why does it matter if i own one.

I am trying to find why they were released ealry and why they wern't tested before the release. If they would of tested them ealry then they may not be spending so much money now. I don't need one to want to investigate this. Do you have to have a broken arm to know that it would hurt? Do you have to have have a kid to be happy for someone who does? It doesn't matter if i have one.

What would it prove or disprove if i did or didn't? The morph is already where it is and no body can change that now but someone did it to them, they didn't do it to themselves.

 

[KelliH]

No I don't and I don't need one to know that it has problems. I don't own one yet because i am waiting for the test results and out-crossing to hopefully show some promising results. Test have been done but they only show little data. You can't say for sure on a little data. Do i have to own one to figure out why someone released them early? Does all the post, threads, reports, blogs and everything else give me a good idea of whats going on, yes! Have i talk to breeders that breed them, yes! So why does it matter if i own one.

What tests do you know of that have been completed? I just asked if you had ever owned an Enigma, why get so defensive?

I am trying to find why they were released ealry and why they wern't tested before the release. If they would of tested them ealry then they may not be spending so much money now. I don't need one to want to investigate this. Do you have to have a broken arm to know that it would hurt? Do you have to have have a kid to be happy for someone who does? It doesn't matter if i have one.

How do you know they were not test bred early on? Who are you referring to that is "spending so much money now", and how do you know they are?

 

[justindh1]

Morphs are genetically stregthened by outcrossing. Is that not what you want to do to strengthen the Enigma genetics.

So why are all the breeders attacken me? I'm just trying to find something out and you are all getting offended for some reason. Do you have something to hide? Why is everyone so pissy about this subject when you all are so about ethics but arn't worried that someone released this gecko knowing it hads problems.

 

[Next Level Geckos]

Morphs are genetically stregthened by outcrossing. Is that not what you want to do to strengthen the Enigma genetics.

So why are all the breeders attacken me? I'm just trying to find something out and you are all getting offended for some reason. Do you have something to hide? Why is everyone so pissy about this subject when you all are so about ethics but arn't worried that someone released this gecko knowing it hads problems.

I think its because this has been discussed a million times and you could have used the search function.

 

[Kitsune]

Also, the fact that you are blindly attacking people.. Whether you realize it or not.
Like Kelli said.. How do you know they were not test bred early on?

 

[justindh1]

The Enigma gentics problem has been discussed but obviously we don't believe in ethics as much as we talk about or other wise this morph wouldn't be such a heated subject. I just want to know why is was released with problems. Is that so hard to answere or do we just not want to go there because of being scared.

So your telling me that it was discovered in late 2006 and introduces in 2007 and that enought test were done to clear it of all problems in between. Doesn't sound like it to me.

I'm not attacking anyone at all just like to find what went wrong in the very beginning. You all are the one being defensive, lol!

 

[Next Level Geckos]

LOL he thinks everyone is scared.

 

[KelliH]

Morphs are genetically stregthened by outcrossing. Is that not what you want to do to strengthen the Enigma genetics.

OF COURSE that is what I want to do! Do you not realize that everyone that has Enigmas has been outcrossing them! It's pretty easy to do since Enigmas are a dominant trait and there is no need to breed Enigma to Enigma to produce more of them.

So why are all the breeders attacken me? I'm just trying to find something out and you are all getting offended for some reason. Do you have something to hide? Why is everyone so pissy about this subject when you all are so about ethics but arn't worried that someone released this gecko knowing it hads problems.

Oh, am I attacking you? I thought we were having a discussion? Please point out to me where I have attacked you. I'm not offended at all, just having a discussion. I am answering all of your questions yet you seem to have ignored some of my questions to you, why?

What's done is done, the Enigmas are here now and they are here to stay. The topic you have brought up has been discussed many, many times. Use the search engine and you will be amazed at all the information you will find.

 

[Mel&Keith]

No one is attacking you. If you want to know why the morph was released when it was or what testing was done you need to contact the person who first produced them. He doesn't post here and no one else can answer for him. Basically everything that can be discussed in this thread without breaking the TOS has already been discussed here before.

 

[KelliH]

The Enigma gentics problem has been discussed but obviously we don't believe in ethics as much as we talk about or other wise this morph wouldn't be such a heated subject. I just want to know why is was released with problems. Is that so hard to answere or do we just not want to go there because of being scared.

So your telling me that it was discovered in late 2006 and introduces in 2007 and that enought test were done to clear it of all problems in between. Doesn't sound like it to me.

I'm not attacking anyone at all just like to find what went wrong in the very beginning. You all are the one being defensive, lol!

First of all, no one is scared. The Enigma was released before much was known about it, you are correct. I wish that more had been known about them before that, but there was not. When the originator of the morph was ready to release them, he did so, and people bought them. That was his choice to release them, and his alone.

Enigmas were "discovered" in the early 2000's, not 2006.

 

[justindh1]

Ya i see! No body can call anyone out because of rules and being affraid of being banned or punished. I see that this isn't getting anywhere because people don't want it to. Ethics isn't as strong as everyone thinks but friendships are. There ae some really great breeders out there that want to hlep this morph out now and i hope they do. I know its a sensative subject because there are people that are deep involved in this and know alot more then people think. People are protecting their own and i'll get the brunt of the force but oh well. I will stick up for what i believe and think and will always say whats on my mind. Nobody can change that!

I don't want to piss anyone off just like to have people think more!

 

[Whitey]

Justin... Im with you on this bro.... but this is where you and I differ.... You are very politically correct... I am not, I know this. Its just me... with that being said.

I can't call someone stupid, but we can make people feel stupid on here??? Is that how it works. Just curious.

i.e. You do know theres a search function right?

And I see no where, where it says that "name calling" is worth 9 points??? All I see is 4 points for negative remarks. http://geckoforums.net/showthread.php?t=33893 <-- sounds to me like someone cant handle the truth and is on a power kick

Also, as stated before, just saying that they are here now and to live with it is insane..... thats like saying " well, the terrorists are already here, lets just let them stay"... what kind of attitude is that? I notice that the breeders have no problem with saying "its here, let it stay" but the, lets call them "pet owners" are more interested in the truth.

More than likely, I will get another point for this, even though I dont know where the other 6 came from....

 

[JordanAng420]

Wait a minute you guys, those last two posts are borderline rude, IMO. :main_thumbsdown:

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

Like I said in an earlier 'ignorant' post... the Enigma is here, whether some like it or not, and now it is up to each individual whether they want to work with the morph. Obviously, LOTS of gecko people wanted to work with them, becasue the market is flooded with Enigmas. In my personal and professional opinion, ALL the new morphs were released without thorough testing due to greed. It's too late to play the blame game now.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, agree or not, but the fact still remains that the Enigma is here, and this topic has been debated so much that the point is moot. If you want answers about why the morph was introduced before any issues were studied or their genetics proven, you're going to have to take that up with ALL the breeders who produced a new morph over the past 15 years. Questioning their ethics will only make you more frustrated and will not get your questions answered.

At this point, the only thing that would make selling an Enigma unethical would be if any problems were not disclosed to the buyer. Then it's their choice whether or not they want to buy it or not.

 

[KelliH]

Ya i see! No body can call anyone out because of rules and being affraid of being banned or punished. I see that this isn't getting anywhere because people don't want it to. Ethics isn't as strong as everyone thinks but friendships are. There ae some really great breeders out there that want to hlep this morph out now and i hope they do. I know its a sensative subject because there are people that are deep involved in this and know alot more then people think. People are protecting their own and i'll get the brunt of the force but oh well. I will stick up for what i believe and think and will always say whats on my mind. Nobody can change that!

Yes, we have a TOS here, it's here for a reason, and if you do not care for it or the rules I have in place here then why don't you just leave. That's right, I said it: LEAVE. I'm sick and tired of people coming to this website, utilizing it for all the excellent information it has, using it to promote their new "businesses", and then bitching about my TOS! When I finally get tired of these people spouting off about this website, the Admin and the rules, I suspend or ban them, and then they whine and complain that I am hurting their business!

No one is protecting ANYONE except for me protecting myself from getting sued, which has been threatened more than once. I don't really want to be sued, therefore I have certain rules in place here to keep that from happening. So in a nutshell, Justin, you don't care for my TOS you can go somewhere else.

 

[KelliH]

Justin... Im with you on this bro.... but this is where you and I differ.... You are very politically correct... I am not, I know this. Its just me... with that being said.

I can't call someone stupid, but we can make people feel stupid on here??? Is that how it works. Just curious.

i.e. You do know theres a search function right?

And I see no where, where it says that "name calling" is worth 9 points??? All I see is 4 points for negative remarks. http://geckoforums.net/showthread.php?t=33893 <-- sounds to me like someone cant handle the truth and is on a power kick

Also, as stated before, just saying that they are here now and to live with it is insane..... thats like saying " well, the terrorists are already here, lets just let them stay"... what kind of attitude is that? I notice that the breeders have no problem with saying "its here, let it stay" but the, lets call them "pet owners" are more interested in the truth.

More than likely, I will get another point for this, even though I dont know where the other 6 came from....

Whitey - like I told Justin... if you don't care for the TOS/rules or the admin of this site, LEAVE! Go start your own forum site. Quit bitching about the rules here and go somewhere else. You don't come into my house and bitch about MY rules! This is MY house and I run it the way I choose. If you don't like it get out!

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

And I see no where, where it says that "name calling" is worth 9 points??? All I see is 4 points for negative remarks. http://geckoforums.net/showthread.php?t=33893 <-- sounds to me like someone cant handle the truth and is on a power kick

You got 9 points for:

Personal/Ethical Attack Against a Business or Breeder - 3 points
Personal/Ethical Attack Against Another Member/Individual - 3 points
Antagonism Towards a Moderator or Administrator - 3 points

Now you are getting ANOTHER 3 points for Antagonism Towards a Moderator or Administrator for telling me I am on a power kick. Bye Bye!

 

[Riyo]

Whitey, what choice to they have but to let them stay (the geckos). Research is being done and from what I've gathered the Enigma Syndrome issue isn't as wide spread as some think. Outcrossing is also being done to help ensure that genes are being strengthened and hopefully it won't pop back up.

Genetics are a funny thing..

This really reminds me of something that happened in the Quarter Horse world. (Sorry, I'm more familiar with horse breeding than gecko since I was raised with horses and my parents bred quarter horses for a while). Let me explain with a quick and dirty synopsis.

There was an awesome quarter horse sire..his name was "Impressive". He was a gorgeous animal, highly muscled and fine definition - the perfect show horse. He exhibited no problems and no one knew that there would be any problems down the line. Of course, people began buying Impressive's offspring or paying to have him sire some foals on their own mares. Soon, the Impressive line was very wide spread. Later, some horses began exhibiting muscle paralysis and shaking. This was a while later, mind you... Eventually, the problem was traced back to Impressive, who never exhibited the problem himself. The disorder is now called HYPP or Hyperkalemic Periodic Paralysis.

Impressive's offspring are still being sold and are still bred. Occasionally a HYPP positive animal will crop up. Some people make the decision to continue to buy his offspring while others choose to have nothing to do with the Impressive line. It's a decision that both the buyer and the breeder have to make.

Completely different animal, very similar situation.

 

[justindh1]

"At this point, the only thing that would make selling an Enigma unethical would be if any problems were not disclosed to the buyer. Then it's their choice whether or not they want to buy it or not."

The problem is that it wasn't unethical in the past or otherwise the wouldn't of been sold.

As to your comment Kelli, you always needs rules in order to control whats going on! You are protecting this forum and you should in order to keep it up and everyone nice towards each other, or atleast halfway. I never said that they were bad rules just said that you can't comment on things because of the TOS. If i didn't like it i would say that the rules are crappy.

I do obtain a lot of good information and i just wanted to discuss this topic. I wondered what people thought about it and i got a good idea now. Its nothing against anyone person just wanted to see what people thought about it and see where it went and it seem it went straight down.

Don't get me wrong about this but it seemed that you are happy you got to ban them!