Who is responsible for them!

[KelliH]

"At this point, the only thing that would make selling an Enigma unethical would be if any problems were not disclosed to the buyer. Then it's their choice whether or not they want to buy it or not."

The problem is that it wasn't unethical in the past or otherwise the wouldn't of been sold.

As to your comment Kelli, you always needs rules in order to control whats going on! You are protecting this forum and you should in order to keep it up and everyone nice towards each other, or atleast halfway. I never said that they were bad rules just said that you can't comment on things because of the TOS. If i didn't like it i would say that the rules are crappy.

I do obtain a lot of good information and i just wanted to discuss this topic. I wondered what people thought about it and i got a good idea now. Its nothing against anyone person just wanted to see what people thought about it and see where it went and it seem it went straight down.

Don't get me wrong about this but it seemed that you are happy you got to ban them!

Fine, but what exactly did you mean by "people are protecting their own"?

 

[Riyo]

Hind sight is always 20/20. It cannot be helped that testing wasn't done early on with Enigmas (or any other morph that I know of) to help predict or determine what may happen in the genetic lottery. Studies are being done now to correct it along with outcrossing...I think this is why many are getting so frustrated right now. So much IS being done it is useless and ineffective to argue over what could have/should have been done. GGG, KelliH, and everyone else working with the Enigma morph have been working as hard as they can to create genetically sound animals and they seem to be very passionate about it, so I can see why there would be a lot of emotions flying.

 

[lisa s]

just at tiny thought - havent it been out in the open from the very beginning of the Enigma's that they had some issues with cirkling ? As far as I know this has never been a secret ? since then some serius breeders has been working hard on the Enigma's in cross-breeding and out-breeding and I belive the Enigma's are doing great now without any of the "starting problems".

 

[justindh1]

I was just meaning that breeders stick together to help protect the business. Nothing bad by it just means that you all stick together and protect each other. Its just rare to have a business where other companies help each other out and are that close, not seen much.

 

[KelliH]

I was just meaning that breeders stick together to help protect the business. Nothing bad by it just means that you all stick together and protect each other. Its just rare to have a business where other companies help each other out and are that close, not seen much.

Well, it used to be that most of the leopard gecko breeders stuck together and were very close. Sadly, the past 2 or 3 years has seen a huge number of new breeders come on the scene, and there is a new sense of competition among some of them that isn't very healthy.

 

[Kristi23]

I was just meaning that breeders stick together to help protect the business. Nothing bad by it just means that you all stick together and protect each other. Its just rare to have a business where other companies help each other out and are that close, not seen much.

Maybe the problem is partly looking at this as a business. Most of the good gecko breeders I've gotten to know care about the geckos first and not making money. Why wouldn't you want those friendships? I have no problem recommending another breeder that I trust for someone even if it means they won't be buying from me.

 

[justindh1]

Competition to a point, is healthy for the business! Its what keeps everyone motivated to keep going. Thats in every aspect of life and there will always be compition. That why new morphs are being evolved to be the first. Linking together kind of puts everyone at the same point and no body get ahead of anyone. To me it a litte weird that all the top breeders are linked together. This is a business and you are in compition to survive and keep going.

Your always going to have friends in the business but not everyone can be friends to each other. People do love it and thats why they do it for a job or 2nd job. Do what you enjoy doing and make it fun. Thats why most people do this because they enjoy it. Many businesses were started in this field first as be hobbiest. Either way it is a business whether you see it or not. Just whether the animal or the business comes first and that will say alot about the breeders.

 

[KelliH]

Competition to a point, is healthy for the business! Its what keeps everyone motivated to keep going. Thats in every aspect of life and there will always be compition. That why new morphs are being evolved to be the first. Linking together kind of puts everyone at the same point and no body get ahead of anyone. To me it a litte weird that all the top breeders are linked together. This is a business and you are in compition to survive and keep going.

Nothing wrong with healthy competition at all.

 

[justindh1]

The whole point of this thread was to talk about the morph in the beginning not the situation now about dealing with the genetic problems. If people knew more about what was done in the beginning or what wasn't done then people might be more at ease. People don't like being uneducated about things, or atleast i don't, and if this came out from the very beginning then it might of helped discussions in the past and present.

 

[reddmann]

AAAARRRRGGGGHHHH!!!!!!!! Sorry; i just felt like yelling.

 

[Hock3ymonk3y]

For anyone that is in to ball pythons, you probably know that the morph called the spider has a little bit of a wobble, and the carmel albino is genetically known to be born with kinks. but no one really makes that big of a deal that a few morphs have a little problem. if it doesnt threaten them, its not that big of a deal. just treat the animals the same and be happy

 

[dprince]

So I have been thinking about the enigmas and their problems. They came about in 2006 and were starting to be sold in 2007. Before ya knew it they were as abundant as flies on dog crap.

Does any wonder why the breeders sold this morph without any testing done on them? Do you think that the breeders that originally sold these geckos were in it for the money and wasn't worried about the problems associated with this gecko and the life these geckos would be living?

Has anyone even tried to figure out who is responsible for not making this morphs genetics stong before selling them for their profit? Tell me what genetic morph that hasn't been breed and then tested to make sure that they have strong genetics and a good breeding stock.

I know that this may be seen as being a attack to some people but things need to be figured out to see where some people actually stand on ethics.

Too many people in the beginning made 10's of thousands of dollars on this misfortunate gecko and not caring about its problems only about the money. Does anyone think that this is a disregaurd of ethics? Did these breeders not care about strong genetics? What do you think was on their mind while selling them, the money or the gecko?

Its not hard to see if you think about it and look past the beauty of this gecko and wonder what would of happened if they would of held the release of this gecko another year or two. What if the original stock was tested and became genetically strong?

People need to actually think about eithics and where they stand on the topic. Too many people are letting things slide and not wondering who is responsible for this problem.

Yes things need to be done with this morph and they are being done but its too little too late. This prices are down and now finally people are worried about this effects of this morph because there not going for there original amount. You do your own thinking and stand where you want to. Use you brain and think about it and wonder what could of been.

Trying to figure out where breeders stand on the issue of enigmas as a catch all for how "ethical" they are as breeders is ridiculous, IMHO. Breeders who choose (or have chosen) to work with enigmas perhaps are choosing to do so because they recognize that there is immense potential with enigmas, and with that potential comes working out some issues. Just because "testing" wasn't done in a way that some may feel is appropriate doesn't mean that information wasn't garnered before the sale of enigmas.

If the reason this thread has been started is to be productive, ie: use the enigmas (or any other morph, for that matter since EVERY new morph has had its issues) as an example of one way that "things were done" and to question how to better handle the release of new morphs in the future, OK then. If the idea of this thread is to berate those who did or do work with enigmas (especially in the beginning when the prices were higher) and try to attach some "ethical" clause to that because enigmas weren't "tested" appropriately (to which I ask - what WOULD have been appropriate?), well........that's not helpful or productive at all. Just MHO.

So...........to put this thread on a positive track, let's pretend for a moment that any one of us/you were super lucky and hatched some random mutation out of your collection. What would be the steps you would undertake? Let's hear 'em.

 

[OhioGecko]

Trying to figure out where breeders stand on the issue of enigmas as a catch all for how "ethical" they are as breeders is ridiculous, IMHO. Breeders who choose (or have chosen) to work with enigmas perhaps are choosing to do so because they recognize that there is immense potential with enigmas, and with that potential comes working out some issues. Just because "testing" wasn't done in a way that some may feel is appropriate doesn't mean that information wasn't garnered before the sale of enigmas.

If the reason this thread has been started is to be productive, ie: use the enigmas (or any other morph, for that matter since EVERY new morph has had its issues) as an example of one way that "things were done" and to question how to better handle the release of new morphs in the future, OK then. If the idea of this thread is to berate those who did or do work with enigmas (especially in the beginning when the prices were higher) and try to attach some "ethical" clause to that because enigmas weren't "tested" appropriately (to which I ask - what WOULD have been appropriate?), well........that's not helpful or productive at all. Just MHO.

So...........to put this thread on a positive track, let's pretend for a moment that any one of us/you were super lucky and hatched some random mutation out of your collection. What would be the steps you would undertake? Let's hear 'em.

Debbie, very nicely put

 

[Dorazio]

clearly this topic has been discussed and there are people that are a lot more informed on the subject then i.

the fact that collectors will pay more money for a "rare breed" is all the fuel people need to try and create uniqueness...when you really think about it you realize these "unique traits" are really just genetic defects. sweet people managed to turn reptiles into baseball cards(rare and unique = $$$$)

so ..we made albino geckos with no pigment in their skin or eyes..im sure they love having super sensitive eyes
now we have geckos with mental problems..but hey..they look so dang cool
cant wait for people to use start inbreeding as a way to create unique geckos with 3 limbs and 1 eye lid.

first case i saw of something like this was silk backed bearded dragons
http://www.dachiu.com/gallery/silk66.jpg


sorry, just venting on the subject..

 

[ElapidSVT]

i find it odd that people that don't even have enigmas would even care.

 

[Dorazio]

i find it odd that people that don't even have enigmas would even care.

how is that odd? please do explain

"i find it odd that people other then the jews are angry about the Holocaust"

not to be rude but i mean just because its not affecting someone doesnt mean they should turn a blind eye.

 

[Nigel4less]

c

the fact that collectors will pay more money for a "rare breed" is all the fuel people need to try and create uniqueness...when you really think about it you realize these "unique traits" are really just genetic defects. sweet people managed to turn reptiles into baseball cards(rare and unique = $$$$)

so ..we made albino geckos with no pigment in their skin or eyes..im sure they love having super sensitive eyes
now we have geckos with mental problems..but hey..they look so dang cool
cant wait for people to use start inbreeding as a way to create unique geckos with 3 limbs and 1 eye lid.

sorry, just venting on the subject..

Excuse me?!?!?!?

He didn't get that big by having Mental problems

Hey everyone look how skinny my Bell Hybino is.....

Look at my Albinos that are so sensitive to Light that they cannot find food.

My Rant

 

[KelliH]

Wow, I think I love you Nigel.:heart:

 

[JordanAng420]

Unique traits are genetic defects??? So the fact that my ears stick out a little and I have bipolar disorder, that makes me genetically defective? And so therefore, should not have children??? Sorry, that just p****s me off a little.

 

[JordanAng420]

So...........to put this thread on a positive track, let's pretend for a moment that any one of us/you were super lucky and hatched some random mutation out of your collection. What would be the steps you would undertake? Let's hear 'em.

Didn't mean to take a negative spin...i'm just really passionate about "unique" people and things... if I happened to hatch some random awesome mutation out of my collection, I would first make sure I was aware of the exact lineage of the hatchling...i'm really not sure what I might do with it after that.